# Professional opponents of raising the minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949 "2016-06-21T09:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/201 "2016-06-22T19:57:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Speaking of being wrong and easily disproven. In 1979 you were correct. But not today. > From [here.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.html?_r=0) Minimum wage isn’t currently $10.10 an hour. Nice bait-and-switch, though. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/202 "2016-06-22T20:18:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Speaking of being wrong and easily disproven. In 1979 you were correct. But not today. > From [here.](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/upshot/minimum-wage.html?_r=0) > [@Voyager](#): > > Nope. 50% are over 30. See above. The median age for those earning $7.25/h or less has hovered around 24/25 over the past few years. [http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/#cps\_minimum\_wage](http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/#cps_minimum_wage) If you look at those earning greater than $7.25/h up to $10.10 (“near minimum wage” workers), then the median bumps to 30. Still young, because damnit, I’m still young and that’s younger than I am. And because median worker age is much higher (\>40). The 35 avg / 30 median number comes from an EPI report ([PDF](http://s1.epi.org/files/2014/EPI-1010-minimum-wage.pdf)), which includes all workers making under $10.10/hour, but it keeps getting misquoted. Obama fucked this up too back in an April weekly address, so I wouldn’t feel bad. And those numbers _are_ important because they tell us about those directly affected by an increase to $10.10/hour. An increase that I don’t think would be economic Chicxulub, and I’m on the record as supporting pinning it to CPI. I just don’t think it will do much to help the majority of people who are in need of the most help. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/203 "2016-06-22T20:20:03Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yeah, I can see how that would really suck. Hmmm. I’m not in that situation, but if I were I think I might try to 1) talk to my boss about my desire to work more and how a fixed schedule would help me do that, 2) ask my boss for more hours with him, or 3) use my downtime to find a lateral move job (or better, of course) that would offer a more fixed schedule. Boss would love to give you those hours and you’d love to work them, but sorry, the feds have decided that if you hit 30 hours (at one job) you have to receive healthcare. And if you hit 40 (at one job), you have to receive time-and-a-half. Don’t worry; they’re helping. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/204 "2016-06-22T21:28:39Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s also irrelevant in the job market. Nobody is forcing people to work in MW jobs at gunpoint. Nah. But depending on your skillset and the market, the choice can often be “work minimum wage or become homeless”. Not _exactly_ a gun to your head, but pretty substantial as is. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/205 "2016-06-22T23:23:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Nah. But depending on your skillset and the market, the choice can often be “work minimum wage or become homeless”. Not _exactly_ a gun to your head, but pretty substantial as is. Upgrade your skillset. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/206 "2016-06-22T23:39:48Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Upgrade your skillset. Where do I download that app from, again? What a _stupidly_ simplistic response to a very real problem. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/207 "2016-06-22T23:53:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where do I download that app from, again? What a _stupidly_ simplistic response to a very real problem. :smack: No. It’s not a simplistic response, it’s a realistic one. Go to school and get trained for a better job. Millions of people do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/208 "2016-06-22T23:56:56Z")
He’s at it again, this fucking cocksucker. No offense to cock suckers. > **[Of Course U.S. Inequality Is Rising, It Was Meant To](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/06/22/of-course-us-inequality-is-rising-it-was-meant-to-we-planned-it-this-way/#735166e46796)** > > That income inequality in the United States has risen in recent years and decades is true, even if not quite as true as many try to tell us it is. However, the point that needs to be grasped is that income inequality was meant to rise, it was... > [@](#): > > That income inequality in the United States has risen in recent years and decades is true, even if not quite as true as many try to tell us it is. However, the point that needs to be grasped is that income inequality was meant to rise, it was deliberately planned that it should rise. This is not to succumb to the blithering from the more indignant on the left who insist that these past few decades have been all about the capitalists being able to shaft the workers with ever greater vigour. **Quite the opposite in fact, there has been a deliberate and specific attempt to increase the taxation of high incomes and thereby reduce inequality of lifestyle.** And then he bemoans the terrible burden it is being a CEO these days. > [@](#): > > Yep, CEO pay. So, let us think about CEO pay for a bit. **Sure, the dollar numbers today are high, but are they higher in real terms than they were a generation or two ago? In terms of what turns up in the wage packet sure they are.** But in terms of what a CEO gets as a result of being a CEO perhaps not. My example here is anecdotal, or at least is used to be, drawn from the book _Barbarians at the Gate_. We hear about the CEO who has the company provide him with a small fleet of aircraft, the company buys him 16 (? I think?) country club memberships around the nation. The bills for those flights to those clubs being picked up by the shareholders. > > **Today exactly the same things would be counted as taxable income to that CEO: this was not true up until the mid-1980s. And now that such things are taxable income those CEOs are electing to take those perks and privileges as actual cash instead of spending upon their lifestyles. You might think that I’m making a little too much of this but James Galbraith (_fils_) was in contact a few weeks back making exactly this point**. See? Things are getting worse for CEOs because more of their perks and privileges are being reported as taxable income, even though their dollar amounts and values of those dollars are both going up. BOO HOO. And finally some truth, in the lies. > [@](#): > > Which brings us to the basic story about rising inequality in the US over these decades. There’s been very little movement in inequality among the 99% of us. The upper middle class is about as far away from Joe Sixpack as it’s always been. **It’s the 1% that have moved ahead – and within the 1% it’s the 0.1 and even more the 0.001% that have soared. And yes, absolutely, a goodly portion of that has come from the manner in which we have forced CEO and other executive compensation to become transparent. Instead of their getting flights and chauffeured cars they now get cash, which is taxed, with which they can buy their own flights and chauffeured cars. Inequality hasn’t increased from this, it has just become more obvious.** So, most of that was horse shit, but he at least admits the 1% and the 0.1% are doing very, very well for themselves. But they’re not actually any better off. It’s just that they can hide less of their wealth, so that means their wealth… doesn’t count? What’s his fucking point? Read it in context. I linked it for you. Tim Worstall. > [@](#): > > This is not the entire and whole story but it is a goodly part of it. And that part of rising inequality is something which we actually planned to happen, something we changed the rules to bring about. **At which point it does seem rather more than just a little bit strange to be complaining about it, doesn’t it?** Yeah, THAT’S what we’re complaining about, you disgusting freak of nature. That’s his entire slam-dunk argument here. No, seriously, go read it himself. His defense of the rise in inequality is that it’s our fault for making it more transparent. That’s his WHOLE argument. Suck my balls, Tim Worstall. Suck them hard. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/209 "2016-06-23T00:01:04Z")
See, for the ultra-wealthy, getting more money obviously means you actually \*have \*more money, because the things you spend money on (such as the price of labor) stay **stagnant**. So the rich are often protected from inflationary effects. While, for the poor, the prices of the things they buy continue to rise while wages stay the same. Can’t edit above post, but \*yourself \*should be in place of _himself_. Too many quotes seems to fuck up the board. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/210 "2016-06-23T00:15:41Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, it’s _your_ response here that is a total disconnect from reality (or a blatant lie). People are only free to change jobs _providing there are other, suitable jobs that will accept them_ and while people are free to _try_ and negotiate wages, if their employer (or potential employer) refuses to do so, then no negotiation will happen. So your error is assuming that both parties are willing and able to negotiate, when in fact one side (the employer) has no need (or willingness, usually, IME) to negotiate. What planet do you live on? If Job A isn’t willing to negotiate, you go down the road to Job B that is willing. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/211 "2016-06-23T01:04:02Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > See, for the ultra-wealthy, getting more money obviously means you actually \*have \*more money, because the things you spend money on (such as the price of labor) stay **stagnant**. So the rich are often protected from inflationary effects. > > While, for the poor, the prices of the things they buy continue to rise while wages stay the same. The inflation rate last year was a whopping 0.1%. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/212 "2016-06-23T01:40:07Z")
My goodness you’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/213 "2016-06-23T01:43:56Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Still, on first look, hardly seems the negative counter-productive nonsense that octopus is claiming. With the up front that I’m a, admittedly not very partisan, Republican. I disagree with them a touch less at the Federal level than I do Democrats. For the current wage debate I mostly shake my head at the nonsense from both sides that ignores what seems to be the best findings of economics. $9 seems to be just a touch above the point where we start into counterproductive territory. $10.10 isn’t too counterproductive. The conversation for the strongest proponents of big minimum wage increases has moved to bigger numbers much deeper into counterproductive territory. Using wage is pretty weak sauce for helping the working poor. It’s hard to justify the benefits as being worth being too far into counter-productive territory IMO. The proposals CBO looked at boosted average family income for those at or below the poverty level at the time by 1% and 3%. That’s it. That’s for increases in the wage floor of 24.1% and 39.3% (with COLA). A small benefit for most with a number of big losers among the working poor. How many of us would bet a 3% raise against even a small chance of losing our job completely? Those big losers then get pushed to the social safety net systems for the non-working poor increasing federal spending. To produce more than small effects through wages we really need to go deep into counterproductive territory. l > [@](#): > > So really, what are we gaining by refusing to raise the minimum wage, cutting welfare programs even further, and giving away more corporate welfare? There’s other options than just what both sides are focusing on now. You hint at that by looking at a mix of currently typical GOP proposals. Seriously look at the response to Sen Alexander’s question in the Senate hearing information. EITC has much less total cost to the economy that raising wages to produce the same level of help for the poor. A small minimum wage increase from current levels to close to $9 would be awesome IMO. I’d support it just by itself. Help the poor without any major macro economic negatives…what’s not to like? Even better we could mix that with EITC and CTC (Child Tax Credit) changes (like plugging the current hole where the mix of EITC/CTC leaves a gap - working poor without kids aren’t helped much currently) and we can get the best of what both tools offer. Use a small wage hike for what it does best and EITC for what it does best - right tools for the right parts of the job instead of a minimum wage hammer for everything. EITC, incidentally, used to be a program Republicans were generally supportive of. They still tend to make noises about it being their preferred method of helping. My side of the aisle has mostly back pedaled and opposed Obama’s EITC proposals. I do give them credit for this year’s budget, after all the shutdown nonsense was over, which renewed provisions of the EITC that were set to expire. Seriously, Republicans with a chance to gut EITC, fuck the poor, and cut EITC spending by **simply doing nothing** , actually did something to help. They didn’t just extend the expiring provisions. They made them permanent. That offers at least a little window of window some bipartisan action in the middle of our tribal, dick measuring contest approach to politics. There’s one problem though. Minimum wage changesdo increase the federal budget by small amounts in the long term by the CBO report; people losing work jobs collect more in benefits and aren’t getting taxed. The probelm is ALL of the cost of EITC is on the federal government. To be revenue neutral (Hey I am a Republican 😃 even if they mostly call me a RINO) that means either cuts or revenue increase. ([pitmode] FUCK YOU GROVER NORQUIST and your simplistic stupid-ass pledge that impedes effective policy. Were you dropped on your head at birth?!?[pitmodeoff]) That part of an agreement has “some issues.” It still strikes me as more politically possible to come up with a funding agreement than a high minimum wage. From the CBO analysis about 22 billion is the increased income for households up to three times the poverty level in the 10.10 plan. For the $9 plan the increase was about 6 billion. In a mixed plan of a $9 wage and EITC increase we’re looking at coming up with around 13 billion to have the same average effects on low wage workers without the problem of job losses. It’s not exactly budget dust but in terms of a 2016 budget of 3.54 trillion it’s only about a .36% increase. We might even be able to save some of that on spending on other safety net programs as we make people better off in other ways. That’s not much help to those affected but we can scale the amount of help to political will to find funding. Obama’s budget for next year… includes expanding EITC and fixing the issue for the childless. Nobody outside Washington is really paying attention to that though. As far as I could tell neither of the last major Democratic candidates took an official position during the primaries on EITC. When the party we tend to associate with caring about poverty doesn’t give a fuck … _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/214 "2016-06-23T01:48:55Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, it’s the way the market _works_. What is the value of a banana? Whatever shoppers are willing to pay. > > Substituting “labor” for a “piece of fruit” doesn’t change the economic equation. “Value” isn’t the same as “price”. I see clothing shops with fancy dresses at expensive prices - no one buys them, they go out of business. The price was always the same though. It is a simplistic economic fallacy to say that the price of something is always what the market is willing to pay. And it’s just one of the reasons why economics isn’t any more of a science than art is. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/215 "2016-06-23T01:58:41Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > “Value” isn’t the same as “price”. I see clothing shops with fancy dresses at expensive prices - no one buys them, they go out of business. The price was always the same though. It is a simplistic economic fallacy to say that the price of something is always what the market is willing to pay. And it’s just one of the reasons why economics isn’t any more of a science than art is. OK price, rather than value. How is the price of labor any different than the price of fruit? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/216 "2016-06-23T02:15:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And yet you advocated a wage given to them merely for existing. Everyone else is advocating minimum wage, so they’d at least have to work. You are the one advocating that people get money without working. You advocate for flat out socialism and then act like being on the left is bad. You’re advocating far more dependency on the government. > > You can’t say people aren’t entitled to something but advocate for an entitlement. The only reason I didn’t blast you before was that you suggested the far more liberal alternative to the minimum wage, which, while impractical, would ultimately be better. > > These types of arguments just don’t hold up. You’ve got horrible cognitive dissonance going on here. Or, you are trolling, and just said that other alternative to be combative. It sure does seem completely out of your normal political arena to be so far on the left. > > Maybe it’s like “government should get out of the marriage business and only issue civil unions” or “we should only have unisex bathrooms”–things that are less likely to happen–using the perfect as the enemy of the good. Your post has so much wrong in it that I can’t respond with a phone. Read what basic income is. And, by the way, basic income is not a wage. Study and then come back. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/217 "2016-06-23T05:41:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What planet do you live on? If Job A isn’t willing to negotiate, you go down the road to Job B that is willing. In this hypothetical, there is no Job B. Due to a multitude of circumstances, there simply is no Job B. Now, how much negotiation is there likely to be between the employer and the prospective employee? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/218 "2016-06-23T09:35:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > In this hypothetical, there is no Job B. Due to a multitude of circumstances, there simply is no Job B. Now, how much negotiation is there likely to be between the employer and the prospective employee? :dubious: There’s always a Job B. Unless maybe get dropped on Mars and are trying to negotiate with Matt Damon. Hell, even then you could negotiate. After all, it’s always better to have a worker that is happy about his job. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/219 "2016-06-23T10:03:47Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The inflation rate last year was a whopping 0.1%. “The inflation rate” :smack: Yeah, it’s exactly that simple. This depends on how you calculate the value of the dollar. Versus commodities in the stock exchange and other indexes, or versus the price of goods and services that poor people are essentially required to purchase, and which represent a significant portion of their income. > **[Inflation Adjusted Gasoline Prices](https://inflationdata.com/articles/inflation-adjusted-prices/inflation-adjusted-gasoline-prices/)** > > Let's look at the inflation-adjusted gasoline prices in February 2022 Dollars to see where prices actually stand. 2002 $1.31 actual price of gasoline \*\*$1.72 \*\*inflation-adjusted price of gasoline 2011 $3.48 actual price of gasoline **$3.65** inflation-adjusted price of gasoline That’s not an increase of 0.1%, and I’m sure you’re aware of that. Here’s the latest low, it actually went back down to: 2015 $2.36 actual price of gasoline $2.36 inflation-adjusted. The difference between $1.72 to $2.36 (let’s ignore all the years in between where people had to buy gasoline and the price was even higher, adjusted for inflation or not) is \*\*not \*\*equal to the difference between the minimum wage in those years. I didn’t get a wage increase of 1/3rd, nor did I get a wage increase of 100% of my wages, to offset the value of my income versus the things I needed to spend money on. So between 2002 and the present, the value of my income compared to gasoline got cut between half and a third. That’s compared to gasoline. How about Education, that thing that allows minimum wage earners to get ahead? It’s not like everyone who works at McDonalds becomes the CEO. It’s a pyramid, most people stay at the bottom. Here, straight from Forbes. I’m not even going to bother finding liberal sources. I’m going to get all my data from the same source whenever possible, to show you I’m not cherry-picking. > **[College Costs Out Of Control](https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveodland/2012/03/24/college-costs-are-soaring/#6518f103641b)** > > College is expensive.  Ask any family with post-secondary students and they will tell you just how outrageous are the costs of college education today.  And yes, gas, food, and life in general are expensive.  But college costs have... > [@](#): > > Since 1982 a typical family income increased by [147%](http://www.classesandcareers.com/education/2011/02/10/what-drives-up-the-cost-of-college-tuition/), more than inflation but significantly behind the huge increase in college costs. College costs have been rising roughly at a rate of 7% per year for [decades](http://www.collegesavings.org/collegeCostCalculator.aspx). 7% 7 percent is not the same as 0.1% is it? Or are those two values equal to you, **D’Anconia**? Health care. > **[The Cost of Health Care: 1958 vs. 2012](https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisconover/2012/12/22/the-cost-of-health-care-1958-vs-2012/#6d6c1f19590f)** > > In 1958, the average worker had to work 118 hours to pay for average per capita health spending. By 2012, that figure had climbed to 467 hours. During the same period the time cost to purchase appliances such as TVs, toasters and washing machines... [http://blogs-images.forbes.com/chrisconover/files/2012/12/healthprices.jpg](http://blogs-images.forbes.com/chrisconover/files/2012/12/healthprices.jpg) **The price of health care has gone up 400% even adjusted for inflation, while wages have been stagnant.** And this is calculating for an “average hourly wage” of about\*\* $19/hr. \*\* How are they calculating that average? But let’s assume for the sake of discussion their numbers are real, even though they’re a total fantasy for anyone who’s been in minimum-wage dominated industries for the past 20 years. I’m not even going to bother quibbling with how they’re calculating wage averages. I’m not even going to bother finding more neutral sources, or liberal cherry-picked sources. It’s like when “Papa John” Schnatter complained how healthcare would cause the price of pizza to rise by 25 cents a pie. I’m not even going to argue his numbers were biased. I’m going to argue from a standpoint of believing the numbers straight away, and pointing out how bullshit it is that they’d argue these numbers support their viewpoint, and how they undermine the arguments being made by the wealthy elites, without using a different set of data or pointing out problems with their methodology. Using a term like “average” can mean median, mean, or range, in addition to other methods, and they can defend that idea because by mathematical definition, an average can be any of those things. And who collects and reports the data? And how much of that data do we see, and what data do we not see? If I’m a member of the wealthy elite and I’m going to frame an argument for the poor to buy, I’m going to cherry pick all my numbers and make certain the best possible argument is presented, and all the facts that don’t support my viewpoint, I’m going to ignore or not report, or distort. But no, I’m not going to bother with any of this. Let’s use their numbers. Let’s use the numbers which MOST favor the viewpoint of the wealthy elite, Forbes’ \*own \*audience, their readership, their contributors, their owners. THEIR NUMBERS. Well, the young people, they don’t need to pay healthcare costs. So minimum wage workers are young people, right? Not from Forbes, but the **same source of information that Tim Worstall cited** in the article I just linked in my previous posts, EPI says: > **[Low-wage Workers Are Older Than You Think: 88 Percent of Workers Who Would...](https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-workers-older-88-percent-workers-benefit/)** > > It is a common myth that very low-wage workers—workers who would see a raise if the minimum wage were increased—are mostly teenagers. The reality is that raising the federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour would primarily benefit older workers.... **88 Percent of Workers Who Would Benefit From a Higher Minimum Wage Are Older Than 20, One Third Are Over 40** I think healthcare costs and frequency of needing healthcare services is higher for the older worker. But that’s not always the case either. When someone plowed into the back of my car while I was at a stop light, while I was on the clock making deliveries working for Pizza Hut, and the accident was 100% not my fault because my car was not in motion and I was at a legal red light, I suffered a head injury which made me go to the hospital. There, all I needed was to be checked to see if I had any internal bleeding in my brain, to make sure I didn’t fucking die. You wanna take a \*\*wild guess \*\*how much that hospital stay cost me? You wanna take a wild guess how much of that a minimum wage worker can afford to cover by buying personal health insurance on minimum wage or less than minimum wage? You wanna take a wild guess how much of my actual healthcare costs were offered to be paid by the insurance company of the at fault driver? You wanna take a wild guess how much of that was covered by my own employer? You wanna take a wild guess what happened when I looked for a lawyer to sue these people? Here’s the bottom line. My employer covered zero percent of it. My wages don’t allow for personal health insurance. I don’t have the $200 a month to spend on that. That’s going towards auto insurance which I pay out of pocket despite working for a company that requires that I drive for them to be employed. The opposing party’s insurance company offered an amount less than what I was owed. Morgan & Morgan refused to even take my case, because there was no money in it for them, because it wasn’t a traumatic long-term injury. It was a single hospital bill, which they’d end up keeping half the value of even if they won, and it wasn’t enough for rich lawyer to be interested in, but it made a difference to **me** , because it was seven thousand dollars, representing over half of my income that year. Now there are several issues at play here, but I’m going to focus on the dollar amount for an instance of healthcare that I needed as a healthy young adult, and compare it to my wages. A minimum wage worker cannot afford 200 dollars a month for personal health care insurance. Period. They could buy a sketchy barely-covers-you policy which has a massive deductible, which guarantees you’re paying a thousand dollars a year and then several thousand if you’re ever injured or sick and need a hospital stay. [http://www.epi.org/files/2013/EPI-low-wage-workers-reality-8-28-2013-2-54-01.png.948](http://www.epi.org/files/2013/EPI-low-wage-workers-reality-8-28-2013-2-54-01.png.948) So look at the rising cost of healthcare over time. And let’s say you’re fit as a fiddle and lucky enough to never be injured on the job. What if you have a family to support? A child? An elderly, disabled relative? What if your shitty income has to help cover their medical costs, and you don’t have a choice in the matter? A living wage is a wage that allows a person to reasonably live, even if they’re **not** spending thousands of dollars a year on frivolous things. It allows them to afford healthcare insurance and gasoline and allows them to save for an education or allows them to make payments on a student loan. A wage allows them to pay rent and food, your basic expenses. Looked for Forbes source, couldn’t find one, used the very first source after googling “rising rent averages over time US” This is the **Wall Street Journal** , and forgive me, but they’re in the same boat as fucking Forbes. This is the wealthy elite using their OWN NUMBERS. [http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-apartment-rents-rose-the-most-last-year-since-recession-survey-says-1452054600](http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-apartment-rents-rose-the-most-last-year-since-recession-survey-says-1452054600) 4.6% PER YEAR. That’s not the same as 0.1%, now is it, D’Anconia? Do you want me to continue? I’ve got lots more. Let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/220 "2016-06-23T10:04:47Z")
Argue with me about how much shit actually costs and how little wage earners actually get fucking paid, like I don’t fucking know, like I haven’t actually experienced it. Jesus fucking Christ. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=12)