# Professional opponents of raising the minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949 "2016-06-21T09:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/261 "2016-06-23T18:20:47Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Because an argument should succeed or fail on its own merits, not who the arguer is? I mean, it’s perfectly reasonable to talk about his “silly ideas” based on their being, well, silly. But “Why the fuck should we listen to some pizza delivery guy” is a terrible standard. I agree, although the first chunk of the OP focused on denigrating the credentials of sometime critical of MW increases. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/262 "2016-06-23T18:45:01Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I agree, although the first chunk of the OP focused on denigrating the credentials of sometime critical of MW increases. A fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/263 "2016-06-23T18:49:11Z")
Automation does replace jobs, and it is strongly correlated to wages. In many of the automotive related plants I’ve dealt with, the rule of thumb was that if a station can be automated for 1-1.5 times annual labor cost for the station, it will be. So if the labor cost rises, more jobs will be in danger of robotic replacement. That said: many jobs cannot at present be automated, and even some that have been, are being un-automated. Customer service functions, for example. Also, there is a steady progression in cost reduction of automation. Meaning, for many positions that can be automated, it is only a matter of time before it is economically advantageous to do so, even without labor cost increases. So if your job is going to disappear anyway, might as well push for some money in the meantime. I take issue with the notion that the market should determine wages. First, labor is different from a banana. It involves deep emotional issues, like dignity etc. Second, we have some info on what wages for the disadvantaged would be if unregulated - we can look at what illegal immigrants are paid, for example. Or interns. Or we can look back at the late 19th and early 20 th century. We can, and in my opinion should, decide as a society that it is not ok to employ people for a pittance. Living in a society where a significant portion of the population is desperately poor would be very unpleasant, in my opinion, and I’m ok with some redistribution so I don’t have to deal with that. Last, I don’t believe that improving skill sets is feasible for everyone, or would by necessity improve the lot at those of the bottom of society. I don’t believe that the way out of their situation is within their control, or they would in fact get out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/264 "2016-06-23T19:01:26Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Because an argument should succeed or fail on its own merits, not who the arguer is? I mean, it’s perfectly reasonable to talk about his “silly ideas” based on their being, well, silly. But “Why the fuck should we listen to some pizza delivery guy” is a terrible standard. Is it? Well, next time you are sick, why don’t you ask the pizza delivery guy what HE thinks the diagnosis is? His opinion is just as valid as a real doctor, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/265 "2016-06-23T19:04:33Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Oh, _do_ go on. Who’s _worthy_ of your valuable time and brainpower? What other plebs should just shut the fuck up? I’m _only_ a fucking county employee–please advise me what opinions I’m allowed to have. Not sure. I gave up listening to plebs after the “Joe the Plumber” fiasco. I’m sure you follow his every word or something, since his opinions are just as valuable as everyone else’s right? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/266 "2016-06-23T19:11:31Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > I don’t believe that the way out of their situation is within their control, or they would in fact get out of it. This may be the fundamental disconnect between a lot of people. Some people, like myself, believe it IS within their control. Some, like yourself I guess, believe it is not. Is it easy? Of course not. A lot of people only do easy stuff, and then bitch about not having “made it” in life. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/267 "2016-06-23T20:06:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is it? Well, next time you are sick, why don’t you ask the pizza delivery guy what HE thinks the diagnosis is? His opinion is just as valid as a real doctor, isn’t it? That’s not how science works. An opinion is not inherently valid, especially based on credentials. If the argument is poor then show why it is poor and another is superior. Appeals to authority are for those who cannot understand the subject matter. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/268 "2016-06-23T20:24:26Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > That’s not how science works. An opinion is not inherently valid, especially based on credentials. If the argument is poor then show why it is poor and another is superior. Appeals to authority are for those who cannot understand the subject matter. I didn’t say an opinion is inherently valid. I said it is inherently invalid, until proven otherwise. Sobbing personal stories about how “I’ve looked in my wallet for 30 years and I’m still poor that’s how I know the system is bad” do not make a convincing argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/269 "2016-06-23T20:38:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I didn’t say an opinion is inherently valid. I said it is inherently invalid, until proven otherwise. > > Sobbing personal stories about how “I’ve looked in my wallet for 30 years and I’m still poor that’s how I know the system is bad” do not make a convincing argument. I agree the OP has much work to do to make a convincing argument. I have provided some supplemental reading. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/270 "2016-06-23T21:53:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Sobbing personal stories about how “I’ve looked in my wallet for 30 years and I’m still poor that’s how I know the system is bad” do not make a convincing argument. except nobody said that. but it sure is easy to say shit about someone instead of addressing his points. :dubious: and your argument appears to be only someone with a job you approve of is entitled to have an opinion. WTF is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/271 "2016-06-24T01:24:24Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > except nobody said that. but it sure is easy to say shit about someone instead of addressing his points. :dubious: From the OP: > [@](#): > > "It’s a myth that government can pay for itself by lowering taxes, and watching the economic benefits reap even more government funds for a lower percentage. That only holds true if the tax rate were many times what it is now and the economy had literally ground to a halt. > > It’s a myth that making the rich wealthier and busting up unions will cause greater economic prosperity. > > **Do you know why I can say that, as a lay person, with no research institute? No billions in funding to “fact find?”** > > **Because I can look inside my wallet and find all the money that isn’t there after 30 years** of union-busting and supply-side economic theory, and the recessions that have occurred." (bolding mine) Seems pretty clear that the OP believes everything he says is true, not based on any “research institute” findings, or any sort of “fact finding”, but simply because he has no money in his wallet after 30 years. > [@](#): > > and your argument appears to be only someone with a job you approve of is entitled to have an opinion. WTF is wrong with you? I simply find a sob “I’m poor so rich people suck” argument to be woefully lacking in any substance. I equally find that thousands-of-word diatribes about how to fix the US Economy and help the entire country’s middle to low class people less then credible when coming from someone who probably developed their theory, not in college or through scholarly research, but while putting slices of meat on uncooked dough. He can have any opinion he wants, doesn’t mean it’s not a stupid one. Or do you think everyone’s opinion on any topic is valuable? WTF is wrong with YOU? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/272 "2016-06-24T06:57:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Seems pretty clear that the OP believes everything he says is true, not based on any “research institute” findings, or any sort of “fact finding”, but simply because he has no money in his wallet after 30 years. Like you, I’m not particularly fond of other people’s posts with hyperbolic “colorful” language — I prefer straightforward diction with reasoned arguments. Unlike you, I try to avoid wallowing in pretension by answering hyperbole with worse hyperbole Unlike you, I try to avoid deliberately misconstruing posts in order to invent false insults about a poster. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/273 "2016-06-24T17:12:14Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > **The price of health care has gone up 400% even adjusted for inflation, while wages have been stagnant.** Thanks Obama. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/274 "2016-06-24T20:54:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is it? Well, next time you are sick, why don’t you ask the pizza delivery guy what HE thinks the diagnosis is? His opinion is just as valid as a real doctor, isn’t it? The occupations of the two have zero effect on the argument. It’s true or false, or whatever scale is appropriate, regardless of that. If it wasn’t, after all, we’d have some serious probability questions to solve on those occasions when they agree. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/275 "2016-06-24T21:16:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is it? Well, next time you are sick, why don’t you ask the pizza delivery guy what HE thinks the diagnosis is? His opinion is just as valid as a real doctor, isn’t it? A blatant _ad hominem_ attack on **Askthepizzaguy** AND an appeal to authority in just 34 mostly-single-syllable words! Congratulations on this outstanding feat of illogic! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/276 "2016-06-24T22:52:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > A blatant _ad hominem_ attack on **Askthepizzaguy** AND an appeal to authority in just 34 mostly-single-syllable words! Congratulations on this outstanding feat of illogic! I don’t see how relying on an actual medical doctor for a medical diagnosis over the opinion of a pizza guy is an appeal to authority, but you go on thinking that. Better than the appeal to poverty that I see so often on this board. And this is the Pit, I can spray ad hominems over anyone I want. Besides, single syllable words are all some of you can understand, 'cause you are so poor and stupid! derp derp! ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/277 "2016-06-27T01:00:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So tell me, pizza boy, why the fuck would anyone listen to your silly ideas about jobs, the economy, the poor, and “living wages” when you are only a fucking PIZZA DELIVERY GUY??? I mean, really. Why should anyone listen to you when you haven’t put in the effort to become a multi-billionaire? If you’re not swimming in an ocean of cash, you’re not worth listening to, so fuck off, you poor excuse of a human being. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Not sure. I gave up listening to plebs after the “Joe the Plumber” fiasco. I’m sure you follow his every word or something, since his opinions are just as valuable as everyone else’s right? Joe The Plumber was stupid because he was stupid, not because he was a plumber. Dismissing ThePizzaGuy just because of his similar social standing is kind of stupid, don’t you think? Of course it’s stupid. It came from you, a lowly plebe who hasn’t lifted himself up to a billionaire. Get cracking on that and until then, quit polluting the internet with your working class nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/278 "2016-06-27T13:38:48Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Why should anyone listen to you when you haven’t put in the effort to become a multi-billionaire? If you’re not swimming in an ocean of cash, you’re not worth listening to, so fuck off, you poor excuse of a human being. When I start spouting off about what I think would fix the country’s economic problems based on ideas derived from my extensive study under Mr. Joe the pizza maker, then you would have a point. Besides, how do you know I’m not a multi-billionaire? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/279 "2016-06-28T16:58:37Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > What the \*fuck \*is your point becomes ----\> what the \*bloody fuck \*is your point -----\> what the \*bloody cunt fuck \*is your point. > > It’s much like what the shit is this becomes -----\> what the fucking shit is this -----\> what the bloody fucking shit is this. The phrase “Bloody cunt fuck” doesn’t work. “Bloody” is such a mild expletive that it undermines the “cunt” and the “fuck”. Also, it doesn’t roll off the tongue like a good profane phrase. “Fucking cunt”'s OK, but overused, “cunting fuck” works well. You need to be a bit more creative with your cursing. I’m a Brit, and while we don’t have an Empire, or much industry, the thing we do still lead the world in is [creative profanity.](http://viz.co.uk/category/rogers-profanisaurus/) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/280 "2016-06-28T22:23:11Z")
I’m a Brit too, and I think you’re modifying the wrong segment. “Bloody _cunt fuck_” is one thing, but “_bloody cunt_ fuck” is another. Using the literal rather than the expletive meaning does intensify the expression. Agreed on how it doesn’t sit too well on the tongue, though. Uh, literally or expletively. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=15)