# Professional opponents of raising the minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949 "2016-06-21T09:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/21 "2016-06-21T16:45:35Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > If MW is raised from $10 to $15 an hour, and a robot can do the job for $12 an hour, then the robot takes the job. We agree that the robot takeover is coming; it seems patently obvious to me that making manual labor more expensive can only accelerate that takeover. > > I’m not particularly arguing that we shouldn’t raise MW - but I’m skeptical of the idea that doing so will make things all peaches-and-cream. Every MW worker thinks “if only they would raise MW to $15…”, not realizing that for him, the sentence might end with “…my job will disappear completely.” And yet, people being human, the ability to automate a job doesn’t necessarily mean we’ll choose for that automation for that job. Fast food delivery was [automated over a **century** ago by the Automat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat), and in the industry, this automation trend died by the 1970s. While there’s a large number of things robots can do, there are times when people are the preferred choice. I’m pretty sanguine about the idea of a “job” by 2100, because I think that by then the economy will be unrecognizable, and almost no one will have jobs as we see them today. But in the short-term, I don’t think robots will just come in and take over. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/22 "2016-06-21T16:56:12Z")
I thought it was a great post, and I agree, somehow we’ve all been programmed to work against our own best interests and quarrel amongst each other instead of focusing our ire where it actually belongs. I can’t believe an entire generation of people fell for trickle-down economics. It is to laugh, except it is to cry. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/23 "2016-06-21T16:56:39Z")
Excellent OP, **Askthepizzaguy**. Thanks for the link to the history of MW; that was an excellent & concise summation. Yes, Americans have been bamboozled into acting against their best interests for decades now and since I’ve already predicted that Mr. Trump will be our next President, I’d have to say that IMO the trend shows no signs of abating. As we move towards a post-scarcity society, I’m anticipating a lot of strife being caused by the fact that there just won’t be jobs for people to do but there will be increasing numbers of people. I don’t think we’ll make that transition smoothly ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/24 "2016-06-21T16:59:10Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well no. We should not be allowing businesses to pay wages that require the rest of us to subsidize those people with tax credits, food and other basic support. Most people who earn the MW are not supporting themselves or anyone else. > [@](#): > > The labor market is not a free market. People are never as free to negotiate their wages or move to better jobs as people with your philosophy like to presume. This isn’t just an error or an incorrect assumption on your part, it is either a complete disconnect from reality, or a blatant lie. Or else you don’t understand the difference between a free market and a seller’s market. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/25 "2016-06-21T17:18:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Most people who earn the MW are not supporting themselves or anyone else. Cite? :dubious: > [@Shodan](#): > > Or else you don’t understand the difference between a free market and a seller’s market. No, it’s not **Chimera** who doesn’t understand things here; it’s you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/26 "2016-06-21T17:30:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The labor market is not a free market. People are never as free to negotiate their wages or move to better jobs as people with your philosophy like to presume. This isn’t just an error or an incorrect assumption on your part, it is either a complete disconnect from reality, or a blatant lie. What makes them not free to leave and find a better job? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/27 "2016-06-21T17:31:41Z")
Reality. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/28 "2016-06-21T17:36:58Z")
> [@](#): > > …Your boss is owned by his boss, who is owned by his boss, who is owned by the owner of the company, and… Here’s the part you forgot: Your boss is owned by his boss, who is owned by his boss, who is owned by the owner of the company, who then answers to a board of directors who in turn have a fiduciary responsibility to act in the best interest of the shareholders. You know the retired schoolteacher down the street who depends on the mutual fund in her 401K (actually 403b) to live on. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/29 "2016-06-21T17:38:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Reality. Can you be more specific? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/30 "2016-06-21T17:39:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > When businesses will take care of the heath of the workforce, of its education, of the transportation system they use, etc… IOW when businesses won’t rely on “the government” to provide them with actually employable workers, then you might have a point. Until then, _we_ (the people, the government) have a perfectly legitimate say in the rules they must follow to hire people. Did you read the OP (yeah, I know) and what his recommendation is? He says companies can simply raise prices in order to pay their employees more and not take a hit in profit. How does “we the people” feel about that? Sounds like “subsidizing” either way. The main difference is that the subsiding is regressive when done per the OP’s plan. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/31 "2016-06-21T17:43:07Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > When businesses will take care of the heath of the workforce, of its education, of the transportation system they use, etc… IOW when businesses won’t rely on “the government” to provide them with actually employable workers, then you might have a point. Until then, _we_ (the people, the government) have a perfectly legitimate say in the rules they must follow to hire people. Why? Why not simply don’t take the job (collectively)? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/32 "2016-06-21T17:46:08Z")
MW is stupid and those who support it are either evil or stupid. You know why people make MW? Because their skills are so poor that they aren’t even worth MW and are only paid that because the government mandates it. There are better methods of forcible redistribution. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/33 "2016-06-21T17:49:40Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Well no. We should not be allowing businesses to pay wages that require the rest of us to subsidize those people with tax credits, food and other basic support. THIS IS CORPORATE WELFARE disguised and slandered as individual welfare and individual weakness. > > The labor market is not a free market. People are never as free to negotiate their wages or move to better jobs as people with your philosophy like to presume. This isn’t just an error or an incorrect assumption on your part, it is either a complete disconnect from reality, or a blatant lie. And that is a prime example of stupid. The government is subsidizing the individual. It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault that the only skill you have in life is hiding from customers at $10/hr. It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault you have 7 children you can’t afford. That’s the problem in America today. Advocating personal responsibility is hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/34 "2016-06-21T17:55:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you be more specific? Sometimes circumstances put you in a situation where you have to take a job that is near home because you can’t drive to work. Sometimes there are higher paying jobs, but the housing close to those jobs are out of your price range. If you have a low credit rating some companies won’t hire you. If you _do_ find a job that pays more and within your travel range you have to compete with all the other poor shlubs going after the same job…and more than likely you will have to take time off from your current job to get interviewed(if your application is one of the few that isn’t round-filed, that is), and if you do this too often you’ll have all the time in the world to look for work because your ass will be fired. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/35 "2016-06-21T17:58:13Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > We agree that the robot takeover is coming; it seems patently obvious to me that making manual labor more expensive can only accelerate that takeover. Not sure if you are envisioning George Jetson or the Terminator. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/36 "2016-06-21T18:13:25Z")
Excellent OP! I don’t know how long it took you to write but it was worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/37 "2016-06-21T18:30:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And that is a prime example of stupid. The government is subsidizing the individual. It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault that the only skill you have in life is hiding from customers at $10/hr. It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault you have 7 children you can’t afford. That’s the problem in America today. Advocating personal responsibility is hate speech. So tell me, is everyone capable of building themselves up through education and becoming engineers and DBAs? No? Then we need jobs for those people too that will support them. Will the job market provide engineering and DBA jobs for all of those people? HAS IT EVER??? No, it won’t. Perfectly qualified people go wanting. And it gets a lot worse when the economy isn’t perfect. It’s a rather rude and patently false idea that your whole philosophy is based on. You’re citing your own anger at ‘those people’ not being good enough. Sorry, that’s the stupid (and evil) part. Your malfunction and lack of humanity doesn’t make the problem “everyone else”. It makes the problem you, and people like you. Everyone should be able to make a decent living, no matter who or what they are. The right wing attitude you have is that it is all the fault of these people and they deserve what they get in life. That it isn’t their employer’s fault that they’re all worthless. Clue: They’re not worthless. They’re Human, and just as valuable as you and I. Without their employees, Walmart doesn’t exist. If they (and you) have so little respect for these people as to call them worthless, then Walmart has a serious existential problem that starts in the mindset of their wealthy owners and managers. And without paying middle class wages, America is not a strong, First World nation. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/38 "2016-06-21T18:34:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s the problem in America today. Advocating personal responsibility is hate speech. It is only hate speech when there is such clear hate and anger behind it. I am truly sorry that you’re such an anger-ridden, whiny little asshole who is so terribly warped by the idea that other people might need to earn a living when they’re so much less than you see in yourself. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/39 "2016-06-21T18:34:53Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So tell me, is everyone capable of building themselves up through education and becoming engineers and DBAs? No? Then we need jobs for those people too that will support them. > > Will the job market provide engineering and DBA jobs for all of those people? HAS IT EVER??? No, it won’t. Perfectly qualified people go wanting. And it gets a lot worse when the economy isn’t perfect. It’s a rather rude and patently false idea that your whole philosophy is based on. > > You’re citing your own anger at ‘those people’ not being good enough. Sorry, that’s the stupid (and evil) part. Your malfunction and lack of humanity doesn’t make the problem “everyone else”. It makes the problem you, and people like you. > > Everyone should be able to make a decent living, no matter who or what they are. The right wing attitude you have is that it is all the fault of these people and they deserve what they get in life. That it isn’t their employer’s fault that they’re all worthless. > > Clue: They’re not worthless. They’re Human, and just as valuable as you and I. > > Without their employees, Walmart doesn’t exist. If they (and you) have so little respect for these people as to call them worthless, then Walmart has a serious existential problem that starts in the mindset of their wealthy owners and managers. > > And without paying middle class wages, America is not a strong, First World nation. Economically they are not as valuable as me. Paycheck proves it. But I get your point. I’m an advocate of a basic income. I think MW is counterproductive. I think basic income might be able to do what MW intended to do without the negative job destroying effects. Basic income would be for citizen only though. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/40 "2016-06-21T18:36:27Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > It is only hate speech when there is such clear hate and anger behind it. > > I am truly sorry that you’re such an anger-ridden, whiny little asshole who is so terribly warped by the idea that other people might need to earn a living when they’re so much less than you see in yourself. That’s preciously ironic. Oh my. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=3)