# Professional opponents of raising the minimum wage **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2016, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949 "2016-06-21T09:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/121 "2016-06-21T21:40:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well keep fighting for counterproductive policy then. Good luck. Repeating it doesn’t make it true, it just makes you look retarded for insisting it is true, when you are clearly incapable of proving it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/122 "2016-06-21T22:05:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Repeating it doesn’t make it true, it just makes you look retarded for insisting it is true, when you are clearly incapable of proving it. The retard is the one who looks at the evidence all around and willingly discards it because it doesn’t fit into ones preconceived ideology. I’ve already told your dumb ass that when there are multiple variables responsible for a particular outcome it’s near impossible to scientifically prove exactly the impact one of those variables has. Minimum wage is responsible in part for unemployment, under the table wages, contract labor, and overseas manufacturing. Go to wal-mart and see all the stuff made in China. A lot of that could be made here if we did not have a wage floor. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/123 "2016-06-21T22:09:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And that is a prime example of stupid. The government is subsidizing the individual. It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault that the only skill you have in life is hiding from customers at $10/hr. It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault you have 7 children you can’t afford. That’s the problem in America today. Advocating personal responsibility is hate speech. > [@Chimera](#): > > So tell me, is everyone capable of building themselves up through education and becoming engineers and DBAs? No? Then we need jobs for those people too that will support them. Why? Why are we continuing to allow people to have children and buy things they cannot afford by handing them money they didn’t earn? It’s true that insisting that people be responsible for themselves has somehow turned into hate speech, and meanwhile we raise another generation that is being taught that they don’t need to wait to have the things they want. Once again I ask, why is it that the responsible are required to pay for the irresponsible? > [@](#): > > Everyone should be able to make a decent living, no matter who or what they are. And ya know what? With very few exceptions, they can _ **IF** _ they get at least a basic education, learn a skill and hold off on the babies and the BMW until they can actually afford them. Quit running up a pile of debt, save some money, etc. All of that mature responsible crap. > [@](#): > > And without paying middle class wages, America is not a strong, First World nation. You want to pay a WalMart greeter a middle class wage?? > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Walmart is a for-profit corporation, not a social welfare agency. Nobody is owed a so-called “living wage”. This is another good point. These days the word “deserve” has become very warped - apparently everyone “deserves” whatever it is they want, whether or not they have earned it. Actually, as it works out, those that _are_ earning get less than they deserve because they are paying for those who have bought into the whole “you deserve this because you are breathing” philosophy. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Nice rant, but idiots who do not know how to sweep a floor or stock cups at a fast food place don’t deserve $15 an hour. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What _do_ fast food workers deserve? Whatever employers are willing to pay and can get people to sign on for. The idea of paying paying middle class wages no matter what the job is elevates McJobs and cheapens those that require skill. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/124 "2016-06-21T22:14:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The retard is the one who looks at the evidence all around and willingly discards it because it doesn’t fit into ones preconceived ideology. I’ve already told your dumb ass that when there are multiple variables responsible for a particular outcome it’s near impossible to scientifically prove exactly the impact one of those variables has. Minimum wage is responsible in part for unemployment, under the table wages, contract labor, and overseas manufacturing. Go to wal-mart and see all the stuff made in China. A lot of that could be made here if we did not have a wage floor. Even more if we had no environmental standards, and we could just dump toxic wastes into the water or air. Get rid of safety standards too, shave a couple bucks more off there. Treat our workers and country poorly enough, and we will get all those jobs back from 3rd world countries. Err, were you saying that wages were the only difference between US and China, or are there multiple variables there too? (BTW, the US regulations on Thorium as a waste material is why we do not, and cannot have electronics or other high tech manufacturing jobs in the US, nothing to do with wages.) ---
**Author:** ![MemoryLeak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MemoryLeak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MemoryLeak)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/125 "2016-06-21T22:17:55Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > From being there, in slightly above minimum wage jobs… > > “You pay me shit, you treat me like shit, so I have zero loyalty to you” > > That’s just the way it is. My boss back in 1994 asked where my loyalty to my employer was. I was a fairly high level programmer and I retorted “Where is my employer’s loyalty to me?” He sat there stunned for a second and then said “good point” and never asked me stupid assed “do this to prove your loyalty to the company” shit again. > > When I worked the call center, the #1 reason people were fired, by far, was for attendance. But of course, zero paid time off, zero paid sick time, unpaid time off denied on a regular basis and shitty treatment all adds up to a work force that really doesn’t give a fuck if you fire them or they quit, because you’re not a ‘real job’ that anyone would be proud of having. > > Especially when you see people being fired for being out sick, or for having the gall to attend their sister’s wedding anyway after they refused to give them the day off for it. (Saw that one up close) > > Kinda disingenuous for employers to pay shit wages, jerk people’s schedules around, publicly talk about how their employees aren’t worth a living wage and then bitch and moan about how hard it is to get good people. Good people don’t want to work for companies like that and some otherwise good people stop being good for employers who don’t respond in kind. > [@Chimera](#): > > I make high 5 figures and live a quite comfortable life. Sorry your money has made you heartless. Wait. In 1994 you were _fairly high level programmer_ and were a _slightly above minimum wage_ and today you’re high five figures? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/126 "2016-06-21T22:34:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Even more if we had no environmental standards, and we could just dump toxic wastes into the water or air. Get rid of safety standards too, shave a couple bucks more off there. Treat our workers and country poorly enough, and we will get all those jobs back from 3rd world countries. > > Err, were you saying that wages were the only difference between US and China, or are there multiple variables there too? > > (BTW, the US regulations on Thorium as a waste material is why we do not, and cannot have electronics or other high tech manufacturing jobs in the US, nothing to do with wages.) Multiple variables there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/127 "2016-06-21T22:42:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > (BTW, the US regulations on Thorium as a waste material is why we do not, and cannot have electronics or other high tech manufacturing jobs in the US, nothing to do with wages.) That seems strange, here is [a company](http://www.firstronic.com/About_Us.html) that manufactures electronics in Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/128 "2016-06-21T22:53:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’ve already told your dumb ass that when there are multiple variables responsible for a particular outcome it’s near impossible to scientifically prove exactly the impact one of those variables has. You mean, outcomes like the combined salaries of one asshole and his wife? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/129 "2016-06-21T23:07:49Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Ok, so I’m going to pick a couple of ‘straw men’ as examples, and let’s see. > > 1\> Amy is a 30 year old mother of a 5 year old, who is in kindergarden half of the day. She gets 30 hours a week at the Piggly-Wiggly because that’s all they’ll give her and she needs time to deal with her child. She gets $9 for this. Her husband Alan works at the local hardware store making all of $10 an hour, full time. Neither of them get any benefits from their jobs and there aren’t a lot of other opportunities for them. > > Q: Do you believe a family of 3 with a child and two working adults deserves to live in poverty? Is this entirely their own fault? Is it the government’s job to bail them out with tax credits, SNAP and the like? This family is not living in poverty. Combined, they make $34,270 a year. After taxes, that is $29,690. The income limit for SNAP is Gross of $26,124. Median rent in Topeka for 2 bedroom apartment is $653, so yearly that is $7,836 Health Insurance for them (including subsidies) is around $150, yearly is $1,800 with $2,500 deductible and low copays After rent and health insurance, they have $20,054 left. If they use their whole health deductible, they have $17,554 left. Car payment and insurance and related, I’ll put at $300 (granted, could be more), which is $3600 a year, leaving them with $13,954. That comes out to roughly $1100 a month left over for food, utilities, and savings. They should be able to AT LEAST save $100 a month. Not too bad for 2 low paying jobs. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/130 "2016-06-21T23:10:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That seems strange, here is [a company](http://www.firstronic.com/About_Us.html) that manufactures electronics in Michigan. Looking on their website, they assemble electronics from parts manufactured elsewhere. I did not delve deeply enough to see if they ultimately say where their “supply chain” comes from, but I would WAG that it is not in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/131 "2016-06-21T23:13:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Looking on their website, they assemble electronics from parts manufactured elsewhere. I did not delve deeply enough to see if they ultimately say where their “supply chain” comes from, but I would WAG that it is not in the US. Well, their website says they “manufacture…complex printed circuit board assemblies (PCBAs) using through-hole and surface mount technology” What did you mean by electronics manufacturing then? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/132 "2016-06-21T23:18:32Z")
> [@MemoryLeak](#): > > Wait. In 1994 you were _fairly high level programmer_ and were a _slightly above minimum wage_ and today you’re high five figures? Nope. Was a Programmer, Consultant and Project Leader from 1980-2001 when I quit the business for health reasons. Didn’t work at all for a couple of years because I had money, then of course I had to go and get married to a psychopath who was quite literally planning to kill me, sold my house, got divorced, tried my hand at a number of ‘less stressful’ jobs, didn’t like them, wasn’t doing well financially, got back into IT but not as a programmer. Have had numerous opportunities to advance over the years (straight out offered management position in 1999(?)) and have turned them down. I know my limits and I know what kind of stress I can handle and I’m extremely happy in my current position, having turned down an opportunity on this job for (more stressful) advancement. Money isn’t everything. It doesn’t make you smarter, or better than anyone. If you’re using only money as your marker for this sort of thing, you’re a damned fool. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/133 "2016-06-21T23:23:48Z")
Productivity is a funny thing, and it doesn’t mean what a lot of people think it means. It just means how much goods and services are produced per employee. You increase productivity, basically, in 2 different ways: 1. Hire super-duper skilled employees who just do everything really fast and efficiently. 2. Automate the job so that the same ol’ worker with the same ol’ skill can produce more goods with same amount of talent and efficiency. Take the archetypical McD’s cashier. I worked a cash register for awhile in the early 70s (at a bookstore, not McD’s, but same difference). You had to enter the amount, figure the tax (looking at a table) and then figure the change. Not rocket science, but it took some skill. Now, you just push the icon (burger), enter the amount given and register does the rest. Today’s workers are more productive than I was, but my job required more skill. When productivity goes up due to automation, then there’s a good chance that the skill level of the job actually goes down, and so you have a larger pool of potential employees to draw from. Employees are a complete PITA, and pretty much every bussiness owner would love to have ZERO employees. So don’t get hung up on productivity as if large increases tells that the employees are so much better than they used to be. Maybe they are maybe they aren’t (more likely the latter, due to automation). As for the MW, I know it’s not going away, so I’d like to just set it to increase with inflation, and then forget about debating the damn thing every month. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/134 "2016-06-21T23:26:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You mean, outcomes like the combined salaries of one asshole and his wife? You go, girl. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/135 "2016-06-21T23:31:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Money isn’t everything. It doesn’t make you smarter, or better than anyone. If you’re using only money as your marker for this sort of thing, you’re a damned fool. I’m sorry, but this is something poor people say. Money IS almost everything. Sick? Money gets you better health care. Bored? Money gets you good vacations. Horny? Money gets you sex. Money gets you access to more things than not having money. You can’t take a trip to Paris and pay for it with love, come on. Don’t care about money? If you are able, make a lot of money and then give it to people who don’t have money. “Here, have some money to make your life better, no problem, I have enough so here is some help” Money makes life easier and better. ---
**Author:** ![MemoryLeak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MemoryLeak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MemoryLeak)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/136 "2016-06-21T23:54:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the MW, I know it’s not going away, so I’d like to just set it to increase with inflation, and then forget about debating the damn thing every month. Now hold the phone, there’s this whole set of politicians who use this every few years. They work hard for their money - you better treat 'em right. ---
**Author:** ![MemoryLeak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@MemoryLeak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MemoryLeak)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/137 "2016-06-22T00:04:39Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Nope. Was a Programmer, Consultant and Project Leader from 1980-2001 when I quit the business for health reasons. Didn’t work at all for a couple of years because I had money, then of course I had to go and get married to a psychopath who was quite literally planning to kill me, sold my house, got divorced, tried my hand at a number of ‘less stressful’ jobs, didn’t like them, wasn’t doing well financially, got back into IT but not as a programmer. > > Have had numerous opportunities to advance over the years (straight out offered management position in 1999(?)) and have turned them down. I know my limits and I know what kind of stress I can handle and I’m extremely happy in my current position, having turned down an opportunity on this job for (more stressful) advancement. > > Money isn’t everything. It doesn’t make you smarter, or better than anyone. If you’re using only money as your marker for this sort of thing, you’re a damned fool. Okay, I see. You weren’t a high level programmer and you were making significantly more than minimum wage. Were those blatant lies or were you temporarily disconnected from reality? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/138 "2016-06-22T00:15:03Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Your response is either a total disconnect from reality or a blatant lie. Given that people ARE free to negotiate wages or change jobs, I’ll vote for disconnect. Which is it? No, it’s _your_ response here that is a total disconnect from reality (or a blatant lie). People are only free to change jobs _providing there are other, suitable jobs that will accept them_ and while people are free to _try_ and negotiate wages, if their employer (or potential employer) refuses to do so, then no negotiation will happen. So your error is assuming that both parties are willing and able to negotiate, when in fact one side (the employer) has no need (or willingness, usually, IME) to negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/139 "2016-06-22T00:17:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So your error is assuming that both parties are willing and able to negotiate, when in fact one side (the employer) has no need (or willingness, usually, IME) to negotiate. Of course an employer has a need to negotiate. If the applicant has skills that are needed, negotiation is what happens. Sometimes that need is “Someone who shows up on time” or “I can’t open tomorrow without someone” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949/140 "2016-06-22T00:31:31Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Of course an employer has a need to negotiate. If the applicant has skills that are needed, negotiation is what happens. Sometimes that need is “Someone who shows up on time” or “I can’t open tomorrow without someone” No, you’re wrong. And/or you seriously misunderstand what “negotiate” means. Do you deny that employers have vastly more power in the relationship than the employee (or potential employee)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-opponents-of-raising-the-minimum-wage/757949.md?page=8)