# Professional 'Women' Fora **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546 "2011-01-14T01:45:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/21 "2011-01-14T19:58:18Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > She should start by asking for more than she’s offered at first. > > Seriously, in my former position, I was a hiring manager. I hired for professional and nonprofessional positions. With one exception, all of the male candidates that I made an offer to asked me for more. None of the female candidates ever negotiated. The conversations go like this: > > BossZilla: Blah, blah, blah, corporate bullshit, and so we’d like to offer you the position starting immediately at $26K per year plus a full complement of benefits. [Note to audience: this figure was the base salary that was budgeted for the position. If I gave the person more, I had to justify whatever case they built for it, i.e., more experience at XYZ skill. The excess came out of savings that occurred because the position was open for a while.] > > Male Candidate: Hm. That seems a little low. Is there any wiggle room? > > BossZilla: I might have a little bit of savings in my salary budget. What did you have in mind? > > Male Candidate: How about $36K? > > BossZilla: Well, that’s a little higher than I can offer you. How about I meet you in the middle? Will you accept the position at $31K? > > Male Candidate: Yes! > > BossZilla: Welcome aboard! > > * * * > > BossZilla: Blah, blah, blah, corporate bullshit, and so we’d like to offer you the position starting immediately at $26K per year plus a full complement of (mostly useless) benefits. > > Female Candidate: Um… erm… :: looks disappointed :: Okay. That’ll be okay, I guess. > > At that point, as the manager, I can’t really say, “Gee, are you _sure_? Why don’t you ask me for more money?” That’s totally the candidate’s opportunity right there. I never once saw a woman try. Later, after working for me for a couple years, they’d come to me and try to ask for a raise for essentially nothing (not adding any particular value in terms of revenue or savings to the organization) and then be really upset for not supporting Women in the Workplace. > > Men aren’t afraid to pipe up and ask. But women are socialized to be pleasers and not rock the boat and the younger one is, the more difficult it is to assert herself and ask for more money. When a man asserts himself, he is a strong, independent man. When a woman asserts herself, she might be labeled a bitch or a ballbuster. After a certain degree of confidence and self-possession is gained, women tend to learn to negotiate better. I know after that hiring experience, the next time I was offered a job, you can be damn sure that I asked for about 10% more than they offered. I got it, too. 🆒 > > Please note, the starting salary I offered was the same first offer regardless of gender. I was not in a position to coach the female candidates on how to negotiate more money out of me. In six years of hiring, only one guy took the first offer I made without asking for a penny more. He could have gotten $3-4K more if he’d just asked. It sounds to me like women should negotiate exactly the same as men to be more successful. In one sense I see that makes salary negotiation strategy a professional issue, or more correctly a gender-neutral issue. The real gender issue in this case is education. Or maybe even assertiveness/confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/22 "2011-01-14T20:14:17Z")
I think it’s assertiveness/confidence and to a much lesser degree, education. Pretty much in terms of, we don’t really teach girls how to negotiate at all. I’ve had girlfriends (single, no BF) come to me crying out of frustration because they were trying to buy or sell a car and were so intimidated by the process. I’ve helped more than one friend buy her car. Seems like it’s really a socialization thing more than education. I was brought up by a motorcycle racer/mechanic who took me to the track every single weekend. I spent my youth around bikers and gearheads, so I’m very comfortable in a mostly-guy environment, discussing things like the merits of a Wankel engine over a traditional 4-cylinder. My role models for how to communicate, negotiate and assert myself came from very unorthodox sources that most little girls do not get exposed to. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/23 "2011-01-14T20:22:42Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It sounds to me like women should negotiate exactly the same as men to be more successful. In one sense I see that makes salary negotiation strategy a professional issue, or more correctly a gender-neutral issue. The real gender issue in this case is education. Or maybe even assertiveness/confidence. Lisa Barron at UC Irvine has done some research on the salary negotiating issue by gender. > **[Website Disabled](http://lisabarron.homestead.com/News.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/24 "2011-01-14T20:40:11Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Lisa Barron at UC Irvine has done some research on the salary negotiating issue by gender. > > [Website Disabled](http://lisabarron.homestead.com/News.html) Well, that certainly supports my experience. I’m asking for even more next time! ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/25 "2011-01-15T02:11:02Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Pretty much in terms of, we don’t really teach girls how to negotiate at all. Do we teach boys how to negotiate? Perhaps I’m unusual in this regard (I’m certainly unusual in other regards), but nobody ever taught me anything about negotiation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/26 "2011-01-15T03:14:43Z")
we all know that successful career women tend to look fit and healthy while overweight minimum wage women are found to predominate the aisles of Walmart. That is a fact, and though there are successful overweight women that I have admired and respected, they tend to have compensated with superior grooming and character. Dress for success applies to men as well as women. Unfortunately for women, men are not as socially stigmatized for excess poundage. The other fact is that successful men like to have fit and healthy women in their workplace circle of successful participants. If you are a take no prisoners career oriented woman, you have to respect what it takes to climb the ladder. Crying foul is for losers. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/27 "2011-01-15T04:11:22Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Do we teach boys how to negotiate? Perhaps I’m unusual in this regard (I’m certainly unusual in other regards), but nobody ever taught me anything about negotiation. Maybe not specifically, but boys are introduced to conflict and competition, and contests of wills, to a far greater extent than girls. Boys are taught to stand up and hold their ground. Girls, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/28 "2011-01-15T07:28:29Z")
I keep thinking this thread title is Professional Women Flora, and that they need some antibiotics. If they are optimists, why are they so sore about it? ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/29 "2011-01-15T07:56:02Z")
In my experience the whole weight issue can be sidestepped by learning how to give good handshakes. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/30 "2011-01-15T08:16:17Z")
Why is women in quotes in the title? ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/31 "2011-01-15T08:38:44Z")
Losing weight can improve an overweight woman’s career prospects in much the same way that getting taller and regrowing hair could help a short, bald man. The difference is that men can’t do much about the hand they are dealt. I don’t know if that is better or worse. In any case, you can bet that if diet and exercise could increase height and regrow hair, it would be very relevant to professional men. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/32 "2011-01-15T08:52:02Z")
Never mind negotiation skills, anyone working for me would not be getting a raise in any year I saw them using “hire standard of appearance” or “{things that} effect a career trajectory”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/33 "2011-01-15T13:24:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Never mind negotiation skills, anyone working for me would not be getting a raise in any year I saw them using “hire standard of appearance” or “{things that} effect a career trajectory”. 😛 Well, those things do effect a career trajectory – by changing a previously unmoving career into one with a downward trajectory. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/34 "2011-01-15T17:46:19Z")
Eh I can see both ways. On one hand maintaining a healthy weight is important for both genders, but women probably receive more crap for being overweight. On the other hand, having the professional women fora talk about weight loss kind of reinforces the “women have to be pretty” idea that causes women to receive more crap for being overweight in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/35 "2011-01-26T02:06:46Z")
It turned into more of an MPSIMS than a Pit, but I did need to curse. I did leave the forum I was bitching about. I still read the one that asks for advice on encouraging girls to consider the STEM professions. I must say that **BrainGlutton** and **FlyingDutchman** ’s posts express my frustration perfectly. Thank you. For my brothers that do not understand, imagine Hair Club for Men spam on professional boards - that’s a real WTF, isn’t it? I like advice on current ‘power’ fashions and which semi-automatic goes best with which hard-hat - but these are not professional issues. Do you expect to see ‘Don’t do the Comb Over’ posts? > [@Nava](#): > > If you’re in a construction site you should be wearing safety shoes. No, those don’t come in heels: you get the choice of rubber-soled vs leather-soled and steel-toes vs non. Ah, those steel toed shoes come in red now. Really. (I was actually speaking of visitors, who are not allowed in the hard-hat zones - I believe hard-hats, like Glocks, come in pink now - but still have to walk through the mud and the blood and the beer to get to the office trailer.) **msmith537** : In my experience, the hot fat chick gets the job before the hot skinny chick. I still don’t want ‘dress for success’ spam on my professional boards. **Kevbo** : Eating right and exercising is so easy in business travel; you can order the $25 salad because the company is paying, and the business hotels always have exercise rooms with no spouse or child interrupting to ask if you’ve seen their car keys or homework. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/36 "2011-01-26T09:40:25Z")
> [@j66](#): > > For my brothers that do not understand, imagine Hair Club for Men spam on professional boards - that’s a real WTF, isn’t it? I like advice on current ‘power’ fashions and which semi-automatic goes best with which hard-hat - but these are not professional issues. Do you expect to see ‘Don’t do the Comb Over’ posts? I don’t see anything wrong with hair loss posts on job sites, especially not in the context of presentation. “Don’t do the combover” seems appropriate to me. Certainly not offensive. “Bald is better than a bad toupee, which is most of them” would also be relevant, I’d think. It might even be more relevant for younger guys. eg: Ditch the ponytail, get a grown-up’s haircut. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/37 "2011-01-26T23:14:37Z")
[quote=“Ellis\_Dee, post:36, topic:567546”] I don’t see anything wrong with hair loss posts on job sites, …QUOTE] I have been unclear; these are not job boards. They are boards for discussion issues of professional interest, such a proposed changes in regulations, new research, that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/38 "2011-01-26T23:16:49Z")
If body language is on-topic, body presentation (weight and hair loss) is also on-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Strainger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strainger/32/244_2.png) [@Strainger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strainger)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/39 "2011-01-26T23:51:28Z")
Wait, you mean there aren’t any posts about babbies? How is it supposed to be a professional women’s forum if they don’t talk about babbies? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/40 "2011-01-27T00:12:17Z")
Well, j66, I’m with you on this one. A professional development conference is not an issue of Cosmo, and it’s belittling to treat it like one. We know what Weight Watchers is, and if we need some weight loss tips it’s not like the world is short of them. Let’s get back to the workplace, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546.md?page=3)