# Professional 'Women' Fora **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546 "2011-01-14T01:45:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/41 "2011-01-27T00:24:32Z")
> [@j66](#): > > **msmith537** : > In my experience, the hot fat chick gets the job before the hot skinny chick. I still don’t want ‘dress for success’ spam on my professional boards. Really? (I don’t disbelieve you, I’m just curious). Why do you think that is, and in what industry? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/42 "2011-01-27T00:27:59Z")
> [@Strainger](#): > > Wait, you mean there aren’t any posts about babbies? How is it supposed to be a professional women’s forum if they don’t talk about babbies? Maybe they are delaying getting pragnent. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/43 "2011-01-27T01:17:53Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Really? (I don’t disbelieve you, I’m just curious). Why do you think that is, and in what industry? I’m in a science based industry. Most of the women are fit, but many are … a healthy armful. I’ve visited a lot of other companies, too, and skinny pretty women with real authority are rare. The women to watch tend to be ‘over-weight’ and dress well; if they are thin, they aren’t ‘pretty’ - they have strong or sharp features. I think it’s true that people tend to not take conventionally beautiful women seriously. I think appearance does affect women’s careers more than men’s, but I think that weight actually affects men’s careers more. Women have so many more options for style and color, to emphasize this or minimize that … And you know, I don’t mind that stuff on the job boards, but it burns my ass when I have to slog through pages of tripe to get to an interesting discussion on a competitor’s patent fight, _ **and it really pisses me off when that tripe includes how to lose 15 lbs in 15 days! or mineral foundations.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/44 "2011-01-27T23:17:37Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > She should start by asking for more than she’s offered at first. > > Seriously, in my former position, I was a hiring manager. I hired for professional and nonprofessional positions. With one exception, all of the male candidates that I made an offer to asked me for more. None of the female candidates ever negotiated. The conversations go like this: > > BossZilla: Blah, blah, blah, corporate bullshit, and so we’d like to offer you the position starting immediately at $26K per year plus a full complement of benefits. [Note to audience: this figure was the base salary that was budgeted for the position. If I gave the person more, I had to justify whatever case they built for it, i.e., more experience at XYZ skill. The excess came out of savings that occurred because the position was open for a while.] > > Male Candidate: Hm. That seems a little low. Is there any wiggle room? > > BossZilla: I might have a little bit of savings in my salary budget. What did you have in mind? > > Male Candidate: How about $36K? > > BossZilla: Well, that’s a little higher than I can offer you. How about I meet you in the middle? Will you accept the position at $31K? > > Male Candidate: Yes! > > BossZilla: Welcome aboard! > > * * * > > BossZilla: Blah, blah, blah, corporate bullshit, and so we’d like to offer you the position starting immediately at $26K per year plus a full complement of (mostly useless) benefits. > > Female Candidate: Um… erm… :: looks disappointed :: Okay. That’ll be okay, I guess. > > At that point, as the manager, I can’t really say, “Gee, are you _sure_? Why don’t you ask me for more money?” That’s totally the candidate’s opportunity right there. I never once saw a woman try. Later, after working for me for a couple years, they’d come to me and try to ask for a raise for essentially nothing (not adding any particular value in terms of revenue or savings to the organization) and then be really upset for not supporting Women in the Workplace. > > Men aren’t afraid to pipe up and ask. But women are socialized to be pleasers and not rock the boat and the younger one is, the more difficult it is to assert herself and ask for more money. When a man asserts himself, he is a strong, independent man. When a woman asserts herself, she might be labeled a bitch or a ballbuster. After a certain degree of confidence and self-possession is gained, women tend to learn to negotiate better. I know after that hiring experience, the next time I was offered a job, you can be damn sure that I asked for about 10% more than they offered. I got it, too. 🆒 > > Please note, the starting salary I offered was the same first offer regardless of gender. I was not in a position to coach the female candidates on how to negotiate more money out of me. In six years of hiring, only one guy took the first offer I made without asking for a penny more. He could have gotten $3-4K more if he’d just asked. This is exactly what I heard only a couple of days ago from the author(s) of [this book](http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Negotiation-Strategies/dp/0553383876/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b). Where did I hear it? [Cosmo Radio.](http://www.xmradio.com/cosmoradio) ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/45 "2011-01-27T23:25:03Z")
> [@BlackKnight](#): > > Do we teach boys how to negotiate? Perhaps I’m unusual in this regard (I’m certainly unusual in other regards), but nobody ever taught me anything about negotiation. Who has traded baseball cards, lunch items at school, money for odd jobs done, etc.? I was self-taught…and I bet a majority of boys and a minority of girls did too as they grew up. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/46 "2011-01-28T04:46:00Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > If you’re in a construction site you should be wearing safety shoes. No, those don’t come in heels: you get the choice of rubber-soled vs leather-soled and steel-toes vs non. Yeah [they](http://www.shoebuy.com/spring-step-elsa/119256/281277) [do](http://www.safeshoes.com/product/RK607.htm). You can get all sorts of crazy safety shoes these days, even heels. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/47 "2011-01-28T14:15:23Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Well, you just underscored her point. The point is that weight issues are not ONLY women’s issues. Men have weight issues as well. You said it yourself, it’s just as important to any gender’s career. > > So the purpose of the forum in question is to discuss professional women’s issues. There are a million other places to discuss weight issues, career-related or otherwise. I think the OP is saying that certain fora participants are getting ground down in topics that are not quite as relevant as they seem to think. As if only women have weight problems. In general, this sort of fora drive me nuts because MOST workplace issues are pretty gender neutral. Even things like kids - my husband takes his turn with sick kids. And just being a women doesn’t mean you are worried about daycare - a lot of women don’t HAVE kids. And many of the topics don’t seem to be relevant. Moreover, they tend to be patronizing. I pretty much walked out of a women in technology luncheon because the speaker was going on and on about how we need more women in technology professions and how can we recruit young women into these professions - and it was a hard sell. First - why do we NEED women there? As far as I know, there isn’t anything that having estrogen adds to a persons ability as a system administrator or DBA. Second, if they don’t have interest, they don’t have interest. Don’t encourage people to do something they don’t have a passion for - or at least an interest in. There is nothing wrong with being a nurse or a teacher or a stay at home mom even if they are traditionally women’s jobs. It doesn’t help women when women look down on the choices other women are making. It doesn’t hurt to let women know they can be engineers or developers or construction workers - but honestly, I think they do know that. I think there are still a few professions where a women’s specific networking group is valuable, because the professions are still pretty macho and women can benefit from the information and networking offered by a gender specific setting. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/48 "2011-01-28T15:17:56Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Why is women in quotes in the title? To add humerous speculation as to exactly what kind of fora are under discussion? 😉 [I suspect it is intended for emphasis] ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/49 "2011-01-28T17:25:54Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > Female Candidate: Um… erm… :: looks disappointed :: Okay. That’ll be okay, I guess. Point well-taken. But I wouldn’t assume that women are weaker negotiators, just different; perhaps more holisitc: “You, the Man, are required to make the first move. You are also required to propose all activities (with the sexual ones presented in a manner that allow me plausible deniablity), for the first several months. This is non-negotiable, or else I’ll reactivate my OK Cupid profile.” (never as plainly stated as this, but never to be assumed otherwise) Then, later on “I’m not unhappy that because you always empty the dishwasher when I ask you. I’m unhappy because I always _have_ to ask you.” This isn’t restricted to personal reationships. Soon after women have settled into their job positions, some of us guys eventually get a phone calls from our boss: “I need you to drop what you’re doing, come to the front office and transfer ten reams of paper from the storage closet to the space under her desk.” I’m not risking a pissing match with a female co-worker: I’m risking one with the guy who signs my paycheck. I’ve gotten this call at home. Like Hell women can’t negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/50 "2011-01-29T01:29:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I pretty much walked out of a women in technology luncheon because the speaker was going on and on about how we need more women in technology professions and how can we recruit young women into these professions - and it was a hard sell. First - why do we NEED women there? Now I don’t mind those discussions, because I wasted two years of my undergraduate life thinking I was going to study humanities. Why? Anyone who enjoys diagraming sentences and translating Ceasar and Cicero literally obviously has a mathematical mind. Why was I never steered to the sciences? I don’t believe young women reject STEM fields as much as they just never consider them, and that really is a puzzle. Maybe it’s because the guys in the classes aren’t cute? [QUOTE=Malthus] [Quote: Originally Posted by Hilarity N. Suze Why is women in quotes in the title? To add humerous speculation as to exactly what kind of fora are under discussion? [I suspect it is intended for emphasis] [/QUOTE] I had a very precise reason for the quotation marks when I first posted. I wonder what it was …? Maybe I meant to indicate that I do not think such fora are _ **for** _ women so much as sociological indoctrination fora aimed _ **at** _ women? We must be thin. We must be all things to all people. We must have babies, be perfect mothers, and never let our bosses down. We must wear Enjoli and smoke Virginia Slims. (Yeah, I’m that old.) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/51 "2011-01-29T03:38:06Z")
> [@j66](#): > > Ah, those steel toed shoes come in red now. Really. > (I was actually speaking of visitors, who are not allowed in the hard-hat zones - I believe hard-hats, like Glocks, come in pink now - but still have to walk through the mud and the blood and the beer to get to the office trailer.) They do come in pink. And every construction site I’ve been on has strict requirements as to hard hat colour, so a pink hat would be unacceptable. Besides, a real Engineer has their hat covered with safety training stickers. I’ve seen the same thing as the OP, except along a different line: children. Many threads, even entire forums, seem to devolve into people talking about their damn kids. How little Khimmie did so well in school, how little Isosceles made 2 goals in a soccer game, and worst of all, how they just had little Euripides take an online test on Facebook which “proves” they have Asperger’s. I swear you can be discussing “how shale gas development could create new opportunities for women in the oil and gas industry in the Northeast”, and someone will pipe up with “oh, my Phrannie said the cutest thing when we were at the gas station…” or “speaking of gas, has anyone ever tried Gerber plantain puree?” :rolleyes: > [@kidchameleon](#): > > Yeah [they](http://www.shoebuy.com/spring-step-elsa/119256/281277) [do](http://www.safeshoes.com/product/RK607.htm). You can get all sorts of crazy safety shoes these days, even heels. Your definition of “safety shoes” is different than mine; none of those quality in my line of work. Safety shoes as I know them have an ANSI-rated steel toe, sometimes a steel shank, ankle protection, and have to be oil-resistant and sometimes fire/arc resistant. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/52 "2011-01-29T04:32:00Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > They do come in pink. And every construction site > Your definition of “safety shoes” is different than mine; none of those quality in my line of work. Safety shoes as I know them have an ANSI-rated steel toe, sometimes a steel shank, ankle protection, and have to be oil-resistant and sometimes fire/arc resistant. That ain’t my definition of safety shoes. I work in an industry with lead brinks in common usage. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/53 "2011-01-29T05:56:07Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Really? (I don’t disbelieve you, I’m just curious). Why do you think that is, and in what industry? I’m not sure what a “hot fat chick” is since those terms seem mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/54 "2011-01-29T16:22:11Z")
> [@Tahssa](#): > > Pretty people always get preferential treatment. Thus losing wieght is a good topic for ALL professionals. What about the professionals who don’t need to lose weight? As the OP points out, there are other places women can go for advice about weight loss. TV shows, internet forums and websites, doctor’s offices, every magazine ever made targeting a female audience. It’s not that anyone is under the impression that being fit and healthy has a downside, it’s the assumption that this always corresponds to major weight loss, and the assumption that all women of every age and every field are obsessed with losing weight and looking attractive at all times (whatever they look like) and, of they’re not, they should be. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/55 "2011-01-29T20:38:57Z")
Look, mostly no one says “I’m not going to hire the fat ugly chick”. But if losing a few pounds gives you a slight edge, why not take it? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/56 "2011-01-29T20:57:08Z")
**Cat Fight,** that is spot on. That is why the wieght-loss discussion are so infuriating. I do not understand why women do this to each other. **Una,** I try not to complain about the kid discussions, though I would think raising children is so demanding that people would be grateful for a little time and space to focus on something else. > [@msmith537](#): > > Look, mostly no one says “I’m not going to hire the fat ugly chick”. But if losing a few pounds gives you a slight edge, why not take it? Because then you will be drop-dead gorgeous and no-one will take you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/57 "2011-01-29T20:57:18Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > They do come in pink. And every construction site I’ve been on has strict requirements as to hard hat colour, so a pink hat would be unacceptable. Besides, a real Engineer has their hat covered with safety training stickers.\ That’s not universal; my husband works as a Construction Safety Officer, and he has personally gotten a pink hardhat for a lady on site who wanted one. They care about appropriate hardhats (CSA approved), and the condition of the hardhat, but the only ones who have a restriction on the colour of the hardhat are the riggers who work with cranes - they have to wear caution orange ones for visibility. He’s telling me that they also had a pink hardhat for people who showed up without the proper gear - a pink one with fuzzy pompoms glued on it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/58 "2011-01-31T18:12:39Z")
> [@j66](#): > > **Cat Fight,** that is spot on. That is why the wieght-loss discussion are so infuriating. I do not understand why women do this to each other. > > **Una,** I try not to complain about the kid discussions, though I would think raising children is so demanding that people would be grateful for a little time and space to focus on something else. > > Because then you will be drop-dead gorgeous and no-one will take you seriously. If you (doesn’t matter what gender you are) take your health seriously, and people see that you take it seriously, then they are more likely to take you (generally speaking) more seriously. This goes beyond weight/beauty issues…it also includes how you treat your body w.r.t. smoking, drinking, drugs, etc. The difference is that men tend to internalize this while women feel the need to give and take advice on these matters…generally speaking of course. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/59 "2011-02-01T02:23:54Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > The difference is that men tend to internalize this while women feel the need to give and take advice on these matters…generally speaking of course. So, it’s a chick thing - we just talk about stuff? Well, I will agree, women do talk things out a lot more than men, on the average, in gender specific arena, (add any more qualification we need …) Now, if the Rex is gender appropriate, I can see why you think that is okay. But it isn’t. When women impose social expectations on each other in a professional setting, it can be so tedious and time consuming and destructive … Don’t even get me started on women who bring brownies in for everyone’s birthday … ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546/60 "2011-02-01T03:11:14Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Perhaps the idea is that becoming overweight doesn’t affect a man’s career trajectory very much but it does with a woman’s? Height affects a man’s career and you don’t see a lot of articles about platform shoes or that surgery they did in Gattaca to make ethan hawke taller. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professional-women-fora/567546.md?page=4)