# Professionals: What is? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424 "2007-07-27T20:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9fc29f/32.png) [@I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_m_Ron_Burgundy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/21 "2007-07-28T02:23:44Z")
A professional is someone who charges $$$ to provide a good or service while operating under all laws applicable to the provision of said good or service. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/22 "2007-07-28T02:32:57Z")
[QUOTE=I’m Ron Burgundy?] A professional is someone who charges $$$ to provide a good or service while operating under all laws applicable to the provision of said good or service. [/QUOTE] That works for me. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/23 "2007-07-28T02:43:29Z")
[QUOTE=Manda JO] Consumer goods and services: lots of industries produce captial goods or goods for the government or support other companies: professions seem to deal directly with households. Again, not really an exclusive rule, but a definite pattern. [/QUOTE] Lots of lawyers and CPAs work for Gov’t and industries. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/24 "2007-07-28T02:48:22Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Lots of lawyers and CPAs work for Gov’t and industries. [/QUOTE] But you wouldn’t describe them as either practicing law or as a public accountant ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/25 "2007-07-28T04:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] PE or not PE fights used to break out all the time in IEEE letter pages - nowadays I think everyone is more worried about offshoring. [/QUOTE] In 1980 I read a poll in _Mechanical Design_ in which there was still a significant number of mechanical engineers who had not graduated high school. Maybe they weren’t PEs, but they were accurately titled as if they were, though probably not paid that way because their companies needed real engineers but couldn’t pay the high-falutin’ salaries of real PEs. Around the same time I read a booklet on managing designers and draftsmen that said they considered themselves professionals and expected to be treated that way, even if they were paid at clerical worker rates. I thought we were better thought of as artists so the crappy pay was actually extravagent, by comparison with some guy starving in a garret. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/26 "2007-07-28T05:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=Manda JO] But you wouldn’t describe them as either practicing law or as a public accountant [/QUOTE] I will be sure to tell my attorney friends at DOJ, the local District Attorney, the Public Defender, the City Attorney, County Council, Senate legal Affairs Office, the EPA both state and federal and numerous other agencies that they are not practicing law…oh yeah I will have to tell my buddy, a litigator at CalTrans that he is not practicing law. Does this mean he can stop paying his dues to the state bar? ---
**Author:** ![MrDantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b487fb/32.png) [@MrDantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/27 "2007-07-28T05:09:02Z")
One of my teachers once told us that professionals were people bound by a set of rules or guidelines on and off the clock. An example would be a police officer (protecting lives) ,doctors (saving lives), teachers (not doing bad things in public), etc. Personally, I’ve always wondered what would happen if I was in a restaurant, and two _professional_ wrestlers saw each other. Edit: I’m not saying these are the only professions, or that this is even the correct definition. This is just how it was explained to me. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/28 "2007-07-28T15:15:45Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] The definition you quoted is pretty close to the typical _sociological_ definition of a profession. I just looked back at my undergrad Honors thesis, which deals partly with questions related to the professions, and found a couple of quotes that give a good idea of how sociologists view professions and professionalization.andNote that both authors were writing in the early 1970s, when sociologists really began to take the question of the professions more seriously, and attempted to find non-simplistic ways to describe them. [/QUOTE] Somewhat similarly, I looked back at a paper I wrote on professional ethics in the past year, and we might be able to add Stephen F. Barker’s comments to the Johnson and Friedson that you posted: > [@Barker](#): > > A profession requires: > > 1. Mastery of an extensive body of book learning. > 2. An ideal of service to others which imposes ethical demands to which ordinary people are not subject. > > Barker, Stephen F. (1992) “What Is a Profession?” 1 Professional Ethics 73-99. Sorry for the paraphrase, but I cannot seem to find Barker’s paper online, and my hardcopy is currently in my files in my office in another city. Anyway, **mhendo** , I don’t know if this helps, but if so, there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/29 "2007-07-28T16:03:36Z")
As I use the term, a professional is a member of a body that: Trains itself. (As do soldiers, chemists, priests and so on.) Accepts special ethical burdens that do not apply to the general population. Disciplines itself. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/30 "2007-07-28T16:46:21Z")
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner] What do _you_ think makes a professional? [/QUOTE] My .02 worth, personal committment to the best outcome possible under the circumstances. I have never considered it to be about pay rate or licensure, its a mindset. In this way, a barista could be a professional, a burger flipper can be a professional, and a lawyer or accountant can be very unprofessional. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/31 "2007-07-28T23:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] In 1980 I read a poll in _Mechanical Design_ in which there was still a significant number of mechanical engineers who had not graduated high school. Maybe they weren’t PEs, but they were accurately titled as if they were, though probably not paid that way because their companies needed real engineers but couldn’t pay the high-falutin’ salaries of real PEs. Around the same time I read a booklet on managing designers and draftsmen that said they considered themselves professionals and expected to be treated that way, even if they were paid at clerical worker rates. I thought we were better thought of as artists so the crappy pay was actually extravagent, by comparison with some guy starving in a garret. [/QUOTE] Yeah. There were also letters by technicians who were sure they were smarter than the real engineers they worked for. And perhaps they were, but I suspect they were very, very good in a relatively limited realm. But there are exceptions. One guy working for me, with an AA degree, was so with it that he got promoted to full MTS - and also got a BS and was working on an MS. I’d guess the main thing is that the PE is important if you are dealing directly with the public. If you are working only within a company, your work gets reviewed and your skills are known better than can be measured by a test. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/32 "2007-07-29T07:32:26Z")
You’re a professional when your duties towards your profession supersedes your duties towards your job. It’s an social contract, either implicit or explicit, that you have to occasionally do things to serve the collective good of the profession. Professional accountants are meant to abide by a code of ethics, even when it contradicts the desires of their boss because doing otherwise would detract from the image of the profession. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/33 "2007-07-29T20:52:07Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Yeah. There were also letters by technicians who were sure they were smarter than the real engineers they worked for. And perhaps they were, but I suspect they were very, very good in a relatively limited realm. [/QUOTE] Much in the same way a roofer or framer is “smarter” than a civil engineer or architect. The guys who actually put stuff together often know a lot more about how the thing works. That doesn’t necessarily mean they should design them. It goes back to the old “gut feeling and street smarts” vs “research and book learning” argument. As a class, “professionals” are largely working in white-collar, decently paying job with long term career potential. The job usually requires a college degree and often advanced degrees and certifications as well. Engineers, accountants, lawyers, stockbrokers, architects, doctors, real estate agents, etc are all part of the professional class. Wikipedia has this to say about professionals: “A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.” “Professions are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard.” “Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace - they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities. This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own.” “Professionals are defined by the power to exclude and control admission to the profession” Technical occupations like HVAC repair, mechanic, plumber, or carpenter are “trades”. One can act “professional” (or not) regardless of their occupation. One can be a professionaly anything as long as they get paid for doing it. That does not make them part of what is generally considered the professional class. > [@MrDantastic](#): > > One of my teachers once told us that professionals were people bound by a set of rules or guidelines on and off the clock. An example would be a police officer (protecting lives) ,doctors (saving lives), teachers (not doing bad things in public), etc. What about an accountant? Is he bound by the GAAP rules whenever he buys something in a store? 😉 I would expand that to say that as a professional, you’re responsibility to the profession often exceeds your responsibility to your particular job. ---
**Author:** ![mikeargo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@mikeargo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikeargo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/34 "2007-07-29T21:37:37Z")
I had an instructor in college who claimed that there was a “classical” definition that limited the number to only four professions: doctor, lawyer, soldier, and clergy. The distinction was that they all had the power to make life-or-death decisions (or something like that). ---
**Author:** ![Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e56c9b/32.png) [@Small\_British\_Shop\_Owner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_British_Shop_Owner)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/35 "2007-07-29T22:41:55Z")
[QUOTE=drachillix] My .02 worth, personal committment to the best outcome possible under the circumstances. I have never considered it to be about pay rate or licensure, its a mindset. In this way, a barista could be a professional, a burger flipper can be a professional, and a lawyer or accountant can be very unprofessional. [/QUOTE] mmm, but how easy is it to articulate that mindset? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424/36 "2007-07-29T22:48:41Z")
[QUOTE=mikeargo] I had an instructor in college who claimed that there was a “classical” definition that limited the number to only four professions: doctor, lawyer, soldier, and clergy. The distinction was that they all had the power to make life-or-death decisions (or something like that). [/QUOTE] an engineer makes more life or death decisions than a lawyer. Those may be closer to the definition of a “[vocation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocation)”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professionals-what-is/413424.md?page=1)