# Professor Asks a Stuttering Student \[ed.\] to Pose Qs Before or After Class **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392 "2011-10-12T04:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/121 "2011-10-14T21:34:09Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I took math and science classes Somehow, I’m not surprised. But you had no general distribution requirements? > [@](#): > > You learned your shit and you took your tests. Did you have any reason to attend class at all? Believe it or not, there are fields of study in which exclusively memorizing shit and regurgitating it is not considered an appropriate way of educating people. Even if you don’t believe me, I really don’t see what the purpose is of singling out this one student. If you really believe that all education is is learning your shit and taking your tests, why allow any student to speak in class? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/122 "2011-10-14T21:43:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If you really believe that all education is is learning your shit and taking your tests, why allow any student to speak in class? They can, as long as they’re succinct and brief. If they cannot be, other accommodations may be offered. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/123 "2011-10-14T21:49:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Did you have any reason to attend class at all? > ? Yes, because my teachers were actually smarter than the books I had or the other idiot students in my class. Obviously your mileage varied. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/124 "2011-10-14T21:49:48Z")
But your replies suggest that you really don’t have a sufficiently broad experience of education in general. Your ideas about classroom time sound like they are from the Victorian era. Hell, even Socrates would think you a mite old-fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/125 "2011-10-14T23:34:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The problem with these comparisons is that those disabilities primarily inconvenience the disabled person (although, yes, if you were stuck behind somebody with a broken leg, you would also be slowed) and the ‘stuttering wastes time’ issue is primarily an inconvenience to other people, not the stutterer. It’s his class too. He derives just as much education from it as others do. If he should be allowed time to ask his questions because to disallow it would deprive others of learning something beyond the lecture, shouldn’t the same apply in reverse? Shouldn’t the others be given time to ask questions so that he might learn something? That’s time he’s using up, as well as general lecture time. He’s just as affected by the teacher not finishing her lecture as anyone else. Seriously, if he really is that hellbent on learning, you’d think he’d want to work around the stuttering. If he can give the question to another student or send it to the teacher’s computer so that it only takes 15 seconds to say out loud versus a minute if he said it, the class can flow better, and if he’s the type with a decent amount of questions (sounds like he is), that time savings will build up. I’m not saying he’s a jerk simply for wanting to ask questions during class. I am surprised that he and a few others think that the answer is “You’re going to sit there and _tolerate_ him! Bask in diversity! BASK, DAMN YOU!” (Okay, okay, I’m hyperbolizing), rather than seek more efficient means of communication when time is limited. I do think the insistent hand-raising during the no-questions lecture was him just being a snot, though she should have called him on it and dealt with it rather than give him “abuse” ammo. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/126 "2011-10-14T23:45:23Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > It’s his class too. He derives just as much education from it as others do. If he should be allowed time to ask his questions because to disallow it would deprive others of learning something beyond the lecture, shouldn’t the same apply in reverse? Shouldn’t the others be given time to ask questions so that he might learn something? That’s time he’s using up, as well as general lecture time. He’s just as affected by the teacher not finishing her lecture as anyone else. This would seem to be an argument in favor of not letting the students speak at all. That might work in some classes, but in most humanities courses I suspect it wouldn’t (and I’m dubious it would work elsewhere). It doesn’t make sense to apply this argument only to the student with the speech disability. > [@](#): > > I do think the insistent hand-raising during the no-questions lecture was him just being a snot, though she should have called him on it and dealt with it rather than give him “abuse” ammo. Yes, that was poorly handled. If she wasn’t taking questions from anyone, just say “I need to get through this lecture this period, I’m not taking questions.” Letting him leave his hand up for an hour makes it sound like she just dislikes him, and while he might be annoying, it seems possible that she was annoyed with him in general _and_ was annoyed that he took up a bit more time than the other students because he stutters. Things should not get to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/127 "2011-10-14T23:59:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This would seem to be an argument in favor of not letting the students speak at all. That might work in some classes, but in most humanities courses I suspect it wouldn’t (and I’m dubious it would work elsewhere). It doesn’t make sense to apply this argument only to the student with the speech disability. Unless he takes up an unreasonable amount of time. That’s factoring in the stuttering, quantity of questions, and relevance of questions. I took another look at the story in the OP, and none of the quotes from the teacher actually refer to the stuttering itself, just him speaking in class. It can certainly be easily inferred, but I wonder if that was really only just part of it and it was just as much the fact that he asked a lot of questions. I don’t know for sure. The same story does say other students claimed they didn’t have a problem with him, but from everything I’ve read it does sound like he speaks up a lot even when it would be inappropriate for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/128 "2011-10-15T01:50:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The answer is in post #94. > That’s charming, but it has nothing to do with what I said. My objection isn’t to the time this would take, although when you get down to it, having him type an answer and give it to someone else to read is unlikely to save you much time. What I was saying is that he can’t participate in discussions during class. Really? I think Stephen Hawkings would disagree with you in real time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/129 "2011-10-15T01:59:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? I think Stephen Hawkings would disagree with you in real time. Read up on his speech synthesizer and get back to me. If you watch him on TV you might get the impression he can use the computer to conduct a conversation at regular speed, but he can’t. It’s not even close. He has to choose his responses letter by letter and scrolls through the options by flexing his cheek. Even with software that can predict what he’s typing, the process is very time-consuming. It’s not a problem if he’s delivering a lecture that he’s prepared ahead of time, but if you ask him a question, you will be waiting quite a while for him to answer. Of course he has a much more severe disability than any stutterer. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/130 "2011-10-15T02:05:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Read up on his speech synthesizer and get back to me. If you watch him on TV you might get the impression he can use the computer to conduct a conversation at regular speed, but he can’t. It’s not even close. He has to choose his responses letter by letter and scrolls through the options by flexing his cheek. Even with software that can predict what he’s typing, the process is very time-consuming. It’s not a problem if he’s delivering a lecture that he’s prepared ahead of time, but if you ask him a question, you will be waiting quite a while for him to answer. Of course he has a much more severe disability than any stutterer. I used Hawkins as an audio/visual example of a typing/speech translator. Sorry you missed that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/131 "2011-10-15T02:12:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I used Hawkins as an audio/visual example of a typing/speech translator. Sorry you missed that. Ah, I see - you’re saying this kid who can speak (but slowly, because of a stutter) could save everybody time by typing his thoughts into a computer with a text to speech translator and having that read his comments. That seems a overly elaborate and I’m not sure how much time it saves, but hey. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/132 "2011-10-15T02:37:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, that’s an open and public challenge to the teacher’s authority. And heaven forbid anyone ever challenge the inveterate and unassailable authority of an adjunct professor at a junior college in New Jersey. It’s a baby step away from pure society-destroying anarchy. :rolleyes: > [@Vihaga](#): > > I don’t give a crap about life lessons about dealing with people with disabilities. And that attitude is why more than 20 years after the Americans With Disabilities Act, and with 1 in 5 Americans living with a disability, we’re still fighting double the unemployment rate, double the poverty rate, a 40% wage gap, double the chance of being victimized by violent crime and plenty of people who just can’t be bothered to “give a crap.” Guess what, temporarily able person – one day, the category “people with disabilities” may very well include you. And it’ll suck to be you when you find out what happens when people don’t give a crap. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/133 "2011-10-15T02:40:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I know everybody likes to go on about how in the old days, school toughtened them up and kids today are a bunch of snowflake indigo pussies, but the argument here is not exactly extreme. The idea is that _maybe_ it’s not alright for a college professor to tell a student “You are not allowed to ask questions because your disability makes you speak slowly.” I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of what’s going on here. The professor says he has his hand up after every question and is taking up a substantial amount of class time with his answers. She is agreeing to call on him once a class, but that’s not enough for the kid. And when she had a presentation where she wasn’t taking questions/comments from anyone, he rudely put his hand up the entire hour. It sounds like this “precocious” kid isn’t nearly mature enough to take a college course. What this professor has done to try to handle the situation is more than accomodating, IMO. She made her suggestion about him asking his questions before or after class, and she asked him to send her an email about his concerns (which he did not do). I don’t know what more she could do, especially if he wasn’t even co-operative with her efforts to help him. This woman has taught for 37 years, and has been recognized for her work with “financially and academically challenged students,” and has gotten positive reviews from her own students. I’m far more likely to believe her side of this than an immature kid who didn’t like that he’s not being allowed to take over class with his comments. IMO, this whole thing is ridiculous and I can’t believe people are jumping on this teacher over this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/134 "2011-10-15T02:44:16Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of what’s going on here. We’re kind of having two separate discussions here and maybe the line has not always been clearly drawn: there’s a hypothetical discussion of whether or not it’s OK to tell a stutterer that he can’t speak in class - I say no, and that’s what I was commenting on in the sentences you quoted - and there’s this specific conflict between this one student and his professor. I was saying on the last page that it’s not clear what exactly happened in the classroom, but I think the truth is in between what the professor said and what Garber said. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/135 "2011-10-15T03:04:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There are indirect means, but not direct means like a hearing aid or glasses or even a seeing-eye dog. Unfortunately those means have the side effect of denying a person who is able to speak - just not quickly - the ability to speak at all, and it’s not hard to see where a student might find that degrading or discouraging. I typically get requests for accommodation from students that are legally blind or have bipolar disorder. I don’t know why that is but that’s what I get. Despite these completely disparate problems, two accommodations that are always requested are extra time on exams and having a fellow student be a note taker. So if it isn’t degrading or violating to have a fellow student take notes, then it should not be too awful to have a fellow student ask your hand written questions in class. > [@Marley23](#): > > If he was taking up a disproportionate amount of time (which is in dispute), a more sensitive way to handle this situation might have involved pulling him aside after a class where it was clear he was having difficulty and offering him the _option_ of submitting questions in writing or by email, and phrasing it in a way that made it clear the suggestion was being made to help Philip as opposed to making it sound like he was a burden on everybody else. That would have been a lot more supportive. The specifics aren’t clear, but it doesn’t sound like that’s how the option was presented here. This story is filled with wrong assumptions and irresponsible behavior. There is a system for dealing with students who need to be accommodated to be treated equally in class. This student clearly did not take advantage of it. His parents, who still run the show because of his age did not take responsibility. The school, it can be argued, did not take responsibility by shuffling the student off to a new class instead of teaching him to be an adult who resolves conflicts reasonably. The NYT reported the story without the other side. THe teacher could possibly have used the wrong phrasing when trying to work with the student. Of all the people who screwed up in this story, the professor screwed up the least. **Magiver** has it right. This is special snowflake disorder. If he isn’t taught to be responsible for his stuttering he’s going to keep getting older but acting the same age. I’ve seen 25 year olds that were as irresponsible with their disabilities as this and made everyone else pay for it. It’s sad. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/136 "2011-10-15T03:05:54Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I typically get requests for accommodation from students that are legally blind or have bipolar disorder. I don’t know why that is but that’s what I get. Despite these completely disparate problems, two accommodations that are always requested are extra time on exams and having a fellow student be a note taker. So if it isn’t degrading or violating to have a fellow student take notes, then it should not be too awful to have a fellow student ask your hand written questions in class. Which of these students are told they can’t speak in class? Again, these are disparate situations. In these examples, you have students getting additional assistance. In the other, you have a student being told he can’t participate. Maybe he would have taken advantage of that if it had been offered in a more considerate way, but forbidding him from talking in class is not the same as offering someone else extra time. > [@](#): > > There is a system for dealing with students who need to be accommodated to be treated equally in class. This student clearly did not take advantage of it. I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/137 "2011-10-15T03:16:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Ah, I see - you’re saying this kid who can speak (but slowly, because of a stutter) could save everybody time by typing his thoughts into a computer with a text to speech translator and having that read his comments. That seems a overly elaborate and I’m not sure how much time it saves, but hey. The teacher shut down a 15 year old kid who was taking up class time. She would know better how class time needs to be allotted. He was given the opportunity to discuss it with the Dean but decided to rant on the internet like like a child. If it truly was a communication problem with a disabled person then a translator is a simple solution. I personally don’t think it was a communication problem but rather a child taking college courses who couldn’t STFU. Without a video of the incident we can only go off the word of a kid who was described as outgoing versus a trained adult teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/138 "2011-10-15T03:19:20Z")
duplicate post ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/139 "2011-10-15T03:24:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The teacher shut down a 15 year old kid who was taking up class time. He’s 16, and I’ve acknowledged that his lack of familiarity with college courses probably exacerbated all of this. > [@](#): > > If it truly was a communication problem with a disabled person then a translator is a simple solution. I don’t think it’s a reasonable accommodation to _require_ someone who can speak to use a translator and refrain from talking. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392/140 "2011-10-15T03:27:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’re kind of having two separate discussions here and maybe the line has not always been clearly drawn: there’s a hypothetical discussion of whether or not it’s OK to tell a stutterer that he can’t speak in class - I say no, and that’s what I was commenting on in the sentences you quoted - and there’s this specific conflict between this one student and his professor. I was saying on the last page that it’s not clear what exactly happened in the classroom, but I think the truth is in between what the professor said and what Garber said. the truth was wrapped around a rock and thrown through a window when the kid declined an offer to discuss it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-asks-a-stuttering-student-ed-to-pose-qs-before-or-after-class/599392.md?page=8)