# Professor at CHristian college suspended for her outspoken support of Muslims **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651 "2015-12-17T01:11:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/101 "2015-12-18T01:09:20Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I generally hate it when people ask you to cite that the sky is blue, but I’ll meet you halfway. [Here’s a respected survey](http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion/#Bible) that shows that Christians’ knowledge of their own Holy Scriptures is abysmal. For example, less than half of American Catholics even know that Genesis is the first book of the Bible, and only a third can name the four Gospels. I’ll go out on a limb and say that if they can’t even name the books, they have no more than a Sunday School idea of what they say. > > Now, you give me a cite that shows that Americans know a lot more about the Quran than they do the Bible. BTW, the same survey showed that only about half of Americans are even aware that the Quran is the Muslim holy book, so that’s not a promising start. Yes, but it’s not simply religion that’s suffering. From that same survey: > [@](#): > > Can you please tell me the name of the vice president of the United States? Yes, Joe Biden: 59% Yes, wrong answer: 5% No, don’t know: 36% In my humble opinion, if 41% of survey respondents aren’t aware that the current vice president is Biden, asking that they come up with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is highly optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/102 "2015-12-18T01:12:25Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > 1. You’re missing the fact that the term “People of the Book” is an Islamic tenet, and Christians are not bound by the Koran. Perhaps a fair point, but I’m a Jewish agnostic who hasn’t slept through the night in a week so I’m not at my best at the moment. I’m not saying that Christians are, or should be, bound by the Koran. The point I was trying to make is that the poor woman was just trying to show some empathy for some people who hold beliefs that in many ways are not so different from the ones she (and the administration of Wheaton) hold, and are catching a lot of crap for it - they _are_ still human beings, after all. > [@](#): > > 1. You are missing the fact that to force a Christian institution to have Anti-Christ(ian) doctrine allowed at a doctrinaire school sort of…well, misses the whole point of being a \*Christian \*school. Plenty of other Christian (and other religious) schools manage not to be so doctrinaire. I have acknowledged that Wheaton may well get what they want because being jerkish isn’t in itself illegal, especially when done in the name of religion. But my personal opinion is that the Wheaton administration is being a bunch of jerks, and I am quite glad that I live and work in an environment where am allowed to hold my own opinions. And express them, even. > [@](#): > > 1. Who said that dissent is something to be allowed in the work environment? Protests should be in open forums, not in the work environment. The workplace is for…well, work. Somehow you seem to be missing that she made her written statement on her personal Facebook page. She happens to have a lot of Facebook friends who are professors and current and former students. Someone apparently drew the Wheaton administration’s attention to her personal Facebook page. If she’d said the same words aloud rather than writing them in a publicly accessible place (even though the place was not strictly a work-managed place), none of this might have happened. Which, in my opinion, sucks. > [@](#): > > 1. Academic freedom? The freedom of a person who is antithetical to the institution? How about the freedom of the school and it’s charter and the students who go for a Christian education? Are their freedoms, choices, etc…less important than somebody who calls them ignorant, and will not give them what they are paying for? Shall a Klansman be forced to be allowed to work for an NAACP? How about Howard University? > > You are trying to obfuscate the term ‘academic freedom’, and dissent. Academic freedom is all about the ability to dissent. Religious schools are allowed not to permit dissent, and I am allowed to think they’re being jerkish. That’s America for you. And apparently quite a number of Wheaton folks happen to agree that the administration has come down too heavily on what some consider not such a huge degree of dissent. They get to have opinions too. Their opinions (and mine) may not change the school’s behavior or policies, but we are all allowed to have opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/103 "2015-12-18T01:27:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not sure about that. She’s a poli sci professor. Note that myself and others have stated this, and you can look it up on Wheaton’s page or the various articles written about them, Wheaton is a “unique” school in that it tries to create a “holistic religious education.” This isn’t a Notre Dame or Georgetown that offer religion classes but otherwise keep religion out of the secular subjects, it’s a deliberate “cross-pollinated” religious school. Absolutely not how I think a school should be run, not what I’d have wanted to experience in college or etc, but the thing is people pay a lot of money to go to this school for that experience, and it’s the school’s job to deliver it. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/104 "2015-12-18T01:27:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but it’s not simply religion that’s suffering. From that same survey: > > Yes, Joe Biden: 59% > Yes, wrong answer: 5% > No, don’t know: 36% > > In my humble opinion, if 41% of survey respondents aren’t aware that the current vice president is Biden, asking that they come up with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is highly optimistic. To be fair, the salvation of their eternal soul doesn’t depend on Joe Biden. And of course, I’m referring to what THEY believe, so please, Bidenites, no hate mail. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/105 "2015-12-18T01:33:01Z")
Note here’s some stuff about Wheaton from the horses mouth. From their mission statement: > [@](#): > > Wheaton College serves Jesus Christ and advances His Kingdom through excellence in liberal arts and graduate programs that educate the whole person to build the church and benefit society worldwide. Here is a statement from Georgetown (a Catholic university that teaches a largely secular education): > [@](#): > > Established in 1789, Georgetown is the nation’s oldest Catholic and Jesuit university. Drawing upon the 450-year-old legacy of Jesuit education, we provide students with a world-class learning experience focused on educating the whole person through exposure to different faiths, cultures and beliefs. > > Students are challenged to engage in the world and become men and women in the service of others, especially the most vulnerable and disadvantaged members of the community. These values are at the core of Georgetown’s identity, binding members of the community across diverse backgrounds. These are very different organizations with very different views. Here are some excerpts from Wheaton’s Statement of Faith: > [@](#): > > Committed to the principle that truth is revealed by God through Christ “in Whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge,” Wheaton College seeks to relate Christian liberal arts education to the needs of contemporary society. The curricular approach is designed to combine faith and learning in order to produce a biblical perspective needed to relate Christian experience to the demands of those needs. Also: > [@](#): > > WE BELIEVE in one sovereign God, eternally existing in three persons: the everlasting Father, His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, and the Holy Spirit, the giver of life; and we believe that God created the Heavens and the earth out of nothing by His spoken word, and for His own glory. > > WE BELIEVE that God has revealed Himself and His truth in the created order, in the Scriptures, and supremely in Jesus Christ; and that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are verbally inspired by God and inerrant in the original writing, so that they are fully trustworthy and of supreme and final authority in all they say. > > WE BELIEVE that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was true God and true man, existing in one person and without sin; and we believe in the resurrection of the crucified body of our Lord, in His ascension into heaven, and in His present life there for us as Lord of all, High Priest, and Advocate. > > WE BELIEVE that God directly created Adam and Eve, the historical parents of the entire human race; and that they were created in His own image, distinct from all other living creatures, and in a state of original righteousness. > > WE BELIEVE that our first parents sinned by rebelling against God’s revealed will and thereby incurred both physical and spiritual death, and that as a result all human beings are born with a sinful nature that leads them to sin in thought, word, and deed. > > WE BELIEVE in the existence of Satan, sin, and evil powers, and that all these have been defeated by God in the cross of Christ. > > WE BELIEVE that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice, triumphing over all evil; and that all who believe in Him are justified by His shed blood and forgiven of all their sins. > > WE BELIEVE that all who receive the Lord Jesus Christ by faith are born again of the Holy Spirit and thereby become children of God and are enabled to offer spiritual worship acceptable to God. > > WE BELIEVE that the Holy Spirit indwells and gives life to believers, enables them to understand the Scriptures, empowers them for godly living, and equips them for service and witness. > > WE BELIEVE that the one, holy, universal Church is the body of Christ and is composed of the communities of Christ’s people. The task of Christ’s people in this world is to be God’s redeemed community, embodying His love by worshipping God with confession, prayer, and praise; by proclaiming the gospel of God’s redemptive love through our Lord Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth by word and deed; by caring for all of God’s creation and actively seeking the good of everyone, especially the poor and needy. > > WE BELIEVE in the blessed hope that Jesus Christ will soon return to this earth, personally, visibly, and unexpectedly, in power and great glory, to gather His elect, to raise the dead, to judge the nations, and to bring His Kingdom to fulfillment. > > WE BELIEVE in the bodily resurrection of the just and unjust, the everlasting punishment of the lost, and the everlasting blessedness of the saved. Wheaton isn’t just a liberal arts school run by a religious group. It’s a religious liberal arts school–they’re different things. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/106 "2015-12-18T01:43:09Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Would you say that a Catholic seminary should be required to keep teachers on staff that teach atheist belief or reject core Catholic theology? No one is required to work at a religiously affiliated organization, and they’re a small minority of employers. We as a people have decided such organizations can hold people to religious standards, within certain limitations. The Wheaton example is very dissimilar from your two anecdotes because those were essentially secular positions working for a religious organization, versus the Wheaton example was an inherently theological position working for a religious school. No, but that’s because of what they are teaching, which is not what they were assumedly hired to teach. That’s the fundamental difference between firing someone for their beliefs and firing them for their actions on the job. The latter is something I find acceptable; the former is not. Plus, as someone who used to be a fully Evangelical Christian (I’m not sure quire where I fall anymore), I don’t see anything she said that contradicts their stated beliefs, nor of the Scripture which they adhere to. She didn’t say that Muslims are going to heaven. She said they worshiped the same God. As people have said upthread, this is no different than saying that those of the Jewish faith worship the same God, and that is a very common Evangelical statement. And I don’t see anything else in her statement that could be the problematic claim, either. It’s not as if it promotes Young Earth Creationism or anything. To be honest, as of right now, it appears to me that the college is lying about its motivations, and that is not good. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/107 "2015-12-18T01:43:22Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Because the Catholics treat Jesus as God in the flesh, while the Mohammedans treat him as a man. That’s all fine and good\*, but it that still leave the problem **Malthus** noted in his previous post. That if you want to be a taxonomic splitter you can make the argument that all three Abrahamic religions have different Gods. But you can’t argue all that strongly IMHO that Christian and Jews share a God, but Muslims do not. Because the Jews also reject Jesus as God and indeed slot him quite a bit lower than Muslims who at least accord him status as a key prophet ( who figures heavily in some versions of Muslim eschatology as an occultated figure who will return in the End Days ). As noted Jewish and Muslim notions of God are much closer to each other than either are to Christian ideas. Islam in its formative state was much more heavily influenced by Judaism ( Jews being common in western Arabia, while Christians were not ). You can make an argument for Abrahamic unity ( makes the most sense to me as an atheist looking in ), for a three-way split, or for a two-way Christian/Judeo-Muslim split. But a two-way Judeo-Christian/Muslim split is by far the most tortured taxonomy theologically. - Leaving aside the bit of pedantry that the phrase _Mohammedan_ is kinda academically archaic and problematic :). Christian works because Christians literally worship Christ as an aspect of God. But Muslims don’t worship Muhammed ( rather they venerate him ) - the concept is actually heretical in Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/108 "2015-12-18T02:01:56Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane;18947665 - Leaving aside the bit of pedantry that the phrase _Mohammedan_ is kinda academically archaic and problematic :). Christian works because Christians literally worship Christ as an aspect of God. But Muslims don’t worship Muhammed ( rather they venerate him ) - the concept is actually heretical in Islam.[/QUOTE] There’s no rule of English that dictates that “Mohammedan” must mean “person who worships Muhammad as a divine being” rather than “person who follows the teachings of Muhammad.” And there’s no rule of English that “Christian” and “Mohammedan” must have such parallel meanings. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/109 "2015-12-18T02:13:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There’s no rule of English that dictates that “Mohammedan” must mean “person who worships Muhammad as a divine being” rather than “person who follows the teachings of Muhammad.” > > And there’s no rule of English that “Christian” and “Mohammedan” must have such parallel meanings. There is no such rule. There is also no rule that anti-Semitic should mean only anti-Jewish. But de facto it does, weak attempts to apply it to anti-Arab bigotry on linguistic grounds aside. History and perception tend to trump pure linguistics. Like I said it is considered archaic if you aren’t some dusty, 1950’s-vintage British academician ;). And some folks find it mildly offensive. Like _Oriental_ for East Asian folks, it has gone out of style. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/110 "2015-12-18T02:14:28Z")
I was also pretty puzzled by this. I cannot see any religious reason, according to christian doctrine, for saying that Muslims don’t worship the same god. They aren’t Christian (as they don’t believe the divinity of Christ). And are clearly “heretical” from the point of view of traditional Christian teaching. But I cannot see how any Christian could claim that the “God of Abraham and Isaac” is not the same God of the Christian bible. > [@](#): > > as is pointed out above, the Christian God is the God that enter into a covenant with Abraham, and thus chose the Jews as His people, That is EXACTLY the God that Muslims worship. The fact they don’t believe that Jesus is the son of god (they do believe he was a prophet) and they believe in a set of scriptures very different to the Christian bible doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/111 "2015-12-18T02:17:55Z")
Whether he’s written by A.C. Doyle or by John Dickson Carr, it’s still the same Sherlock Holmes. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/112 "2015-12-18T05:17:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It is indisputable that Muslims and Jews worship the same God. Both faiths attribute the same traits to the Deity, and members of both faiths acknowledge this fact. Their only point of disagreement is on the precise list of prophets of that God. > > Christians consider themselves to worship the same God as Jews do. If one accepts that premise, then, Christians also worship the same God as Muslims do. > > Now, a Christian will doubtless claim that the Muslim understanding of that God’s nature is in some sense wrong or at least incomplete. But a Christian will say the exact same thing about a Jew’s understanding. To say that the Muslim understanding of God is sufficiently different to constitute being “a different god” is equivalent to saying the same thing of the Jewish god. > > What this college is saying is that the god they worship is not the God of Abraham. And thus that they disagree with C. S. Lewis’s argument for a community of theists with imperfect understanding in “The Case for Christianity.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/113 "2015-12-18T05:33:39Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > You can make an argument for Abrahamic unity ( makes the most sense to me as an atheist looking in ), for a three-way split, or for a two-way Christian/Judeo-Muslim split. But a two-way Judeo-Christian/Muslim split is by far the most tortured taxonomy theologically. Well, a Christian-Muslim/Judaism split would be pretty weird, too, but of course it’s a bit unlikely absent some hypothetical political motivation. > [@](#): > > - Leaving aside the bit of pedantry that the phrase _Mohammedan_ is kinda academically archaic and problematic :). Christian works because Christians literally worship Christ as an aspect of God. But Muslims don’t worship Muhammed ( rather they venerate him ) - the concept is actually heretical in Islam. :dubious: Are you under the impression that Lutherans worship Luther? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/114 "2015-12-18T06:13:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Well, a Christian-Muslim/Judaism split would be pretty weird, too, but of course it’s a bit unlikely absent some hypothetical political motivation. Good point, though at least they do sorta share that Jesus thing. > [@](#): > > :dubious: Are you under the impression that Lutherans worship Luther? Well, not nearly as much as Calvinists worship Calvin :p. Look, I’m not trying to derive a general grammatical rule. I’m just saying that’s how the term has been perceived and that’s probably why it has gone out of style and it largely _has_ gone out of style. Interestingly enough the wiki on the subject mentions a few old holdouts - all on the subcontinent it appears, which makes sense to me because I’ve really only run into it in much older British history books. I’m sure I’ve had this dicussion before in GQ or elsewhere ( probably twelve times, everything comes around on these boards ). As another anahronism I remember when I was a teenager the preferred spelling was often _Moslem_ ( I still remember losing half a point for writing _Muslim_ in a HS class quiz which my history teacher insisted was a spelling only used by American black converts ). But these days that has become uncommon as well. I just probably wouldn’t bother being an annoying pedant about that one, because I don’t think it offends anybody ;). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/115 "2015-12-18T06:48:17Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I just probably wouldn’t bother being an annoying pedant about that one, because I don’t think it offends anybody ;). Oh, it’s bound to offend _someone_. This is 21st century America. 🙂 As for the OP, their college (a private one), their rules. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/116 "2015-12-18T07:17:21Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’m just saying that’s how the term has been perceived and that’s probably why it has gone out of style and it largely _has_ gone out of style. Interestingly enough the wiki on the subject mentions a few old holdouts - all on the subcontinent it appears, which makes sense to me because I’ve really only run into it in much older British history books. Just to clarify(not necessarily to you), the holdouts you mention are not holding out in continuing usage of the _term \* Mohammedan_, they’re simply _named_ (probably officially registered as) Mohammedan something or the other, and haven’t bothered to change their name. This is quite common with institutions in India (and probably elsewhere, since rebranding tends to be a painful experience). The Indian Institute of Technology in Chennai, for instance, is still named IIT Madras. - in fact, I have never heard or seen that term used in the subcontinent to refer to Muslims, the only alternative I have heard is Mussalman ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/117 "2015-12-18T09:02:47Z")
To put it another way. I don’t think any Christian would claim Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, or even Jim Jones worshiped a different god to them. Even if they got incredibly screwed up somewhere along the way. I am sure many Christians would invoke Satan when describing where theses kind of cult leaders went wrong, but they would not deny they ultimately were trying to serve the same god as them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/118 "2015-12-18T10:05:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Swartkrans is near Sterkfontein. “Sterkfontein” is also used as the generic name of the area. > [@](#): > > And member 5 might be _H habilis_, but it’s not conclusive. Why are you referring to a stratigraphic unit as a species? Anyway, I’ve not read anything to cast sufficient doubt on the identity of e.g SK27 as _H. habilis_. Phillip Tobias certainly thought it was, and if _anyone_ besides Leakey would know, it would be him. And what about the _H. ergaster_ from the same cave? That’s not in any serious dispute, and _also_ in the _H. sapiens_ ancestral line. > [@](#): > > But the whole “Cradle of Humankind” is more of a marketing slogan than a scientific fact. It made sense in the early 20th century, but we know so much more now than we did then. I’d say finds like _H. naledi_ make it more and more sensible than ever before. Hell, I don’t think I ever heard the term applied there before the 90s, before that it was all Olduvai, all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/119 "2015-12-18T10:54:18Z")
Nevermind. Forgot the thread was already to page 3. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651/120 "2015-12-18T12:12:39Z")
From where are you guys getting this premise that Islam rejects the Jews-as-chosen-people thesis anyway? Do you have a reliable source for it, or are you just deriving it by the copropoesis\* method? [https://blogginginterfaith.wordpress.com/2015/02/14/why-were-children-of-israel-called-chosen-people-in-quran/](https://blogginginterfaith.wordpress.com/2015/02/14/why-were-children-of-israel-called-chosen-people-in-quran/) There are always lazy corner-cutters and downright bullshitters who will publish false claims about subjects little known by their intended audience, which they obtain via copropoesis. It’s quicker and easier than actually doing the research, and they seem to think why not throw that in, nobody will know the difference. I’ve observed how often Islam has fallen prey to this substitution of bullshit for facts, but that won’t fly any more, now that so much attention has been turned to the subject. If everything I’ve seen purported to be in the Qur’an actually were in it, the thing would be the size of _Encyclopædia Brittanica_ instead of the modest-sized book it really is. Moreover, the Qur’an repeats itself a lot, so the actual content when boiled down is even slimmer than it appears. \*In the vernacular: Making shit up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professor-at-christian-college-suspended-for-her-outspoken-support-of-muslims/740651.md?page=7)