That’s either backpedaling or disingenous or ignorant to make such a claim about this case. It is exactly what Gates is arguing. It is the reason this is big news- if E.O. Wilson had been arrested for a confrontation with a cop on the same matter, does anybody think it’d be on every news show? Gates and his supporters have argued this consistently and as recently as today on his own web site. Gates’ statements earlier this week in his own words:
To support Gates’ version of events, therefore, at least implicitly approves of his view of racism being a motive. I have consistently said I thought arresting Dr. Gates was an officious overreaction on the part of Crowley, but I don’t understand how the Gates supporters can see little or nothing wrong with Gates’ refusal to cooperate with a routine and legitimate investigation or to agree that he jumped the gun to play the race card. (And oh, btw, Gates just happens to have a book and a documentary on racial profiling coming out).
Al Sharpton has also officially stated that he believes the arrest of Dr. Gates was blatant racism, proving conclusively that Al Sharpton expressed an opinion (it wouldn’t surprise me if his next statement was “Who’s Henry Gates, by the way?”) but I expect more of Gates than I do of a media whore like Sharpton. Gates is is a well educated man who works in a political environment and screams “MOTE!!! MOTE!!! MOTE!!!” when there may or may not be a mote in Crowley’s eye but there’s an undeniable plank in his own. To assume “white cop=ignorant racist” IS racial profiling, and in fact the only racial profiling proven to have happened.
I have no delusion that we’re living in a post racial society since Obama’s election and I think such notions are absurd. If we never again have a white president I doubt we’d ever be free of racism. But, frankly, the playing of the race card when it’s not relevant is as harmful to race relations as legitimate cases of profiling.
And does it strike anyone else odd that Whalen, who is under no suspicion or investigation and was just the 911 caller, feels the need to have a lawyer speak for her? I’m a bit dubious of her claims that she had no words at all with Crowley.
sigh I did not say what you seem to want to infer from my comment. I think that in many interactions - - be they with police or with the president of the United States - - the person with the age, education, and maturity ought, based on age, education, and maturity, behave like a resonable human being. Note that this viewpoint does not give Sgt. Crowley or any other police a free pass in abusing their authority. I just found it incredibly odd that an educator at one of the world’s best universities would behave the way he did.
From accounts I’ve read the officer attempted to calm down the angry guy in this case. The angry guy wouldn’t cooperate. The angry guy calmed down once he was cuffed. Nothing too difficult to understand about it.
Ditto.
I, and a lot of other people around the world care that good police who are doing their best to maintain law and order (I am not saying that all police fall in that category) and who regularly get shot at and die in the line of duty shouldn’t have to take verbal abuse when they are trying to do their job.
As long as you’re guessing about what I might think, why don’t you tell me what color shirt I’m wearing too?
Thanks for sharing. I’m sure that Professor Gates is a warm and professional colleague. Said friend was a Ph.D. student at Duke and then a faculty member. He worked as a waiter while finishing his dissertation and also helped a friend who had a catering business in Durham. He served Professor Gates as a waiter and as a caterer’s assistant and expressed his view that Professor Gates was not the easiest guy to get along with when the balance of power wasn’t equal.
Obviously I’m back in the thread after being out of touch with the boards for a few days. I agree completely that Sgt. Crowley’s report has lost much, if not all, of its ability to stand as a completely factual account of this incident. I would very much like to see him and the other witnesses questioned about this part of the report. While it’s possible that he talked to some other person whom he thought was Ms. Whalen, it’s also possible that he made it up. If it turns out that Sgt. Crowley fabricated this portion of the report then I stand ready and willing to step forward and call that he be disciplined and will take back some of my comments in this thread.
I think the thing that bothers me is that even now, many posters take the Police Report as the ultimate truth and seem to place a higher burden on Prof. Gates, despite the fact the witness’ direct testimony is at odds with some of the statements in the report.
If you look at this recent case, how many of you would’ve believed this young woman, without the video to back her up?
The only person so far saying that Prof. Gates said, “your momma” and was yelling in the house is the Officer. There’s no sound of Prof. Gates yelling on the recording.
I don’t know what happened, but it seems to me that it not unreasonable to believe that both Prof. Gates and the Officer skewed their versions of events to their favour and that we shouldn’t, at least in this instance, treat the police report as a true and unbiased record of the events.
So I get a free pass to yell abuse at the barista at Starbuck’s? Problem with my water bill solved by pitching a tantrum? Bank teller not moving fast enough?
You accused me earlier of having a “disgustingly elitist viewpoint”. How is what you’ve opined here - - that since people in public service jobs often get abuse from their customers they should just deal with it - - not disgustingly elitist?
The officer was an adult in a position of authority over the person he was confronting. That puts the onus of responsible behavior on him. It doesn’t matter if Gates was throwing a tantrum like a five-year-old: it would make him an immature asshole, but it doesn’t justify an arrest unless he was threatening the officer’s safety. Being a jerk to a police officer is not a crime.
No, they shoudln’t have to, but neither should any human being in a service job. Everybody should treat everybody else with respect and dignity–but when they don’t, they shouldn’t get arrested for it.
Paisley. (Yes, yes, it’s a pattern, not a color, but I like saying “paisley.”)
I said it comes with the territory–not that the people who do it aren’t assholes. I have worked more than one service job, so I know of which I speak. And when the person being verbally abused is a police officer, whose job it is to defuse tense situations, they should have a better response than, “I’m going to trick you into coming outside so I can arrest you on your own private property for being angry at me, instead of slowly repeating the information you asked for and/or writing it down so if you’re lying about not hearing me you can’t have that excuse and then walking away.”
P.S., For such an allegedly educated person, you sure have no fucking clue how to reply to more than one post at a time. (Hint: there’s a multiquote feature, or you can do it manually by opening up tabs/windows to everything you want to reply to and then pasting them all together and submitting them at once.)
It’s a guayabera so there’s embroidery but no paisley.
I sacked groceries to make ends meet in graduate school. Just as the person who does that work doesn’t deserve to be berated while doing his job, the cop checking to see if you’re safe in your own home after a report of a possible break-in doesn’t either. Seems we’re in agreement there.
If the police did lure Professor Gates outside just to arrest him, then I’d agree with you. If Professor Gates followed the officer outside and ignored two warnings that he was being disorderly then I’m not surprised he got arrested.
I’ve been a member for about 10 years so I like to think that I know how to post, but thanks for the SDMB 101 lesson. :rolleyes: My browser has been hanging up and I just took them mostly as they came rather than spend a long time on one post and have it eaten by the hamsters.
It seems you keep overlooking the middle ground here. He was arrested for disturbing the peace (or equivalent), which is a legitimate arrestable offense (misdemeanor?) virtually everywhere. “…doesn’t justify an arrest unless he was threatening the officer’s safety” is, begging your pardon, utter horsecrap. There are plenty of arrestable offenses that have nothing to do with the officer’s safety.
Now, if you don’t believe disturbing the peace should be a violation, or you believe the officer used it as an excuse when there was no violation, fine. But please don’t maintain that there could be no legitimate reason for arrest other than endangering the officer, because that stuff don’t flush.
Please also consider that the officer was ready to leave and invited Gates to speak outside if he had anything further because it was hard to hear inside with all the din. And that Gates did not want to discuss but wanted to rant, and continued ranting even after repeated warnings to settle down. None of us has all the facts, but you seem to dismiss the rather reasonable possiblity that the officer had no intention at all of tricking Gates or arresting him, and only made the arrest when Gates went too far.
Hey, we can be grocery-store-job buddies! I worked as a cashier at a Jewel-Osco in high school and early college. I’m slightly disappointed that I don’t still remember all the produce PLUs.
Please tell me of a single time when someone was arrested for being an asshole to you. I’m guessing it never happened. People can be asked to leave the premises for being assholes, and then arrested if they don’t leave, but they can’t be arrested just for being jerks. When the person being a jerk is in their own home, it is incumbent on the person they’re verbally abusing to leave. Which is what the officer should have done.
So, you think that if you’re angry with a police officer who has accosted you in your own home, and you continue arguing with that officer on your front porch, that the officer is justified in arresting you instead of just walking away?
You’re very welcome. Unfortunately, you appeared to have already spoiled my next lesson, which was going to be smileys.
Go back and re-read. I said that specific set of circumstances (being an asshole to a police officer) didn’t justify an arrest unless the officer’s safety was threatened, so that people couldn’t jump down my throat saying, “What if he were threatening to stab the officer, would you want him to just stand there and get stabbed, you’re such a filthy disgusting liberal, go eat a baby.” But apparently you skipped past the rest of the sentence and jumped down my throat for the qualifier.
Good thing I never made that argument, then, huh? Better keep it away from me–I’m allergic to straw. (You can file me under, “Used it as an excuse when there was no violation.”)
Why would it be easier to hear outside than inside? Why wouldn’t the officer just walk away? As has been repeatedly observed, the onus of responsibility to resolve the situation was on the officer. When you work in any kind of service job, your options are to defuse the situation or to refuse to participate it. There is no “I’m going to arrest you 'cause I don’t like what you said about me” option.
My favorite day was my first day at the Bi-Lo when the lid came off the big jar of peanut oil and it spilled all over me. Fun times.
I think a lot of things, among them that if you’ve got a beef with a police officer who, in most cases has the discretion to cite you for disorderly conduct and who deals with a lot of crap from real criminals, you suck it up, keep calm, get done with the issue, and then get your lawyer invovled. Even Colin Powellshares some of that opinion.
Or more simply, as my grandmother used to say: “Never wrestle with a pig. You’ll both get dirty but the pig will enjoy it.” She was referring to farm animal pigs and not cops, but there is some overlap sometimes.
Too bad they’ve made coding URLs so easy - - takes all the starch out of Dope 404.
Perhaps we’re not communicating clearly. I agree that being an asshole to the officer (“contempt of cop”) doesn’t justify arrest. My point is that it’s POSSIBLE that Gates’ actions did fall into the range of legitimately disturbing the peace, and it appeared to me that you ignored this possibility.
Less reflection of sound off the walls and other hard smooth surfaces.
He was ready to, but he wasn’t certain if Gates had further questions or statements, and wanted to offer an opportunity for further discussion if Gates so desired.
But there is an “I’m going to arrest you because you’re causing a public disturbance after being warned twice” option, and that did indeed defuse the situation.
There comes a point where continuation of problematic behavior is not due to the officer’s failure to handle the situation well, but to the misbehaver’s determination to continue.
Is it stupid to argue with a police officer? Yes. Does being rude to someone who’s just doing their job make you a jerk? Yes.
But, the crux of the issue: **Does that make it okay for a police officer to arrest someone for arguing with them rudely, **especially when that encounter is taking place in the person’s private residence where the officer is free to walk away? Absolutely not.
“This dude can arrest you for talking back to him” does not mean you should have to sit down and shut up–it means that the arresting officer needs to learn about what is and isn’t an abuse of the power at his discretion.
Perhaps it appears that way because I’m disagreeing with you, and you’re so convinced that you’re right that the very possibility that anyone else could have looked at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion astounds you.
So far, a number of discrepancies have come to light. The ones against Gates just make it look like he’s an asshole, not that he was “disturbing the peace” (especially since the officer could have ended the confrontation **at any time **by leaving). The ones against the officer, on the other hand, make it look like he was at best unprofessional (by not just walking away), at mediumish a power-tripping asshole (by arresting Gates just for daring to argue with a cop), and at worst a racist (by treating Gates differently than he would have a white man in the same situation).
Thanks to Omniscient, I’m on record several times in this thread as saying that I don’t like the idea of people getting arrested on their front porches. That said, I don’t think that Sgt. Crowley abused his power in this instance. According to several sources Professor Gates could have allowed Sgt. Crowley to leave without following him out into public and making a scene.
I’d feel very differently if I thought that Sgt. Crowley lured Professor Gates outside and arrested him without warning; I’d feel differently if Professor Gates had been arrested inside his own home; I’d feel differently about that if Professor Gates had been calm and cooperative.
In this particular case with this particular officer’s public behavior I don’t think that Professor Gates was arrested for being an asshole or for yelling at the policeman. He was, in the judgement of the Cambridge and Harvard police on-scene, engaged in disorderly behavior and refused two additional warnings to calm down.
And on preview, you could have used the multi-quote function rather than reply to me and Gary T separately.
