# Professor's job **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 21, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773 "2013-10-21T01:32:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/21 "2013-10-21T13:54:19Z")
Thanks for the reply. I should also ask my college roommate who is now a faculty member in the physics department in the SUNY system. ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/22 "2013-10-21T14:54:04Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > By the way, in the most recent episode (Season 7, Episode 5, “The Workplace Proximity”), Sheldon was as usual wearing a short-sleeve t-shirt with some sort of nerdy picture on it. But when he was in the cafeteria, it struck me that this was very casual, juvenile dress for a university faculty member. Does this bother anyone else? No. I have seen plenty of professors at both the research university I am at now, and a liberal arts college, who dress very casually. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/23 "2013-10-21T15:34:55Z")
The more a Prof teaches, the less status he/she has. High status professors are seldom caught in a classroom…though their names will appear as the teacher of many courses. {yea, I know that is f’d up…but that is the way it is} ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/24 "2013-10-21T15:36:25Z")
I’m convinced that “Why don’t the BBT guys teach?” will join “How can the Friends afford their apartments?” as one of those unanswerable TV show questions that was actually answered quite frequently. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/25 "2013-10-21T18:36:54Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > They’re full time researchers, not post-docs or professors. That’s pretty normal for a big research university like CalTech. No it is not. Full time researchers who are neither Ph.D. students, post-docs, nor faculty (professors) are pretty much non-existent at universities, although they can be found at places such as government research institutes and labs run by private industry. The full time researchers at universities are post-docs, on short term (but sometimes renewable) contracts or grants. There are full time, salaried people working in university research labs, but they are the lab technicians, not the researchers. Our “heroes” are certainly not technicians. There are, I believe, full time, salaried researchers at JPL, which is a government lab. However, although JPL is administered by Caltech, and there is a good deal of interaction between them, it is a separate institution on a separate campus, and there is no suggestion on the show that the protagonists work at JPL. They are always said to be at Caltech. (In any case, neither Sheldon, nor Amy, nor, almost certainly, Leonard,are doing research of a kind done at JPL.) Realistically, somebody who does what Howard does would almost certainly be a salaried engineer at JPL rather than at anything at Caltech (although there _are_ engineering labs, with professors and presumably post-docs doing research at Caltech), but that is never said in the show, and his lab (or workshop, or whatever it is) seems to be on the same campus where the others work, whereas in reality JPL is several miles away. Incidentally, Caltech is _not_ a “big research university”, it is a very small one, though also very elité, punching way above its weight. It is perhaps unique amongst universities in that it actually has more non-faculty researchers (i.e., Ph.D. students and post-docs, but perhaps even post-docs alone) than it has undergraduates. (At least, that was the case when I was a post-doc there, in the early '90s, but it is almost certainly still so.) Even regular research universities, however, will still have many more post-docs doing research than they will actual professors. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/26 "2013-10-21T18:46:19Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > The more a Prof teaches, the less status he/she has. > > High status professors are seldom caught in a classroom…though their names will appear as the teacher of many courses. > > {yea, I know that is f’d up…but that is the way it is} I agree that this is true to a considerable extent, but only with respect to undergraduate teaching. Even the top research professors will have Ph.D. students, and generally they will want to have plenty of them, both to do the grunt work in the lab and to be the people who carry forward the professor’s intellectual legacy and influence into the future and to other institutions. I also think it is very rare for even the highest status professors to be able to get out of undergraduate teaching altogether (and not all will want to), although the time they spend in the classroom may sometimes be quite limited. The fact is, though, that top universities these days make most of their money from scientific research, not from teaching undergraduates. Research, not teaching, is their real business. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/27 "2013-10-21T18:53:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If you are referring to me, it was clearly stated that she was serving as a Consultant. Perhaps disciplines differ, but in my experience, someone with a faculty position at one institution serving as a Consultant on a research project at another institution involves a few hours or a few days out of a year. These might be roles on advisory committees, stats or design consultation… Going to work on another project would seem something more like having a Co-investigator role. Picking up altogether and going to work at another institution seems like a sabbatical. > > Of course, the “work” she was doing involved showing pictures to a trained monkey and verbally recording her impressions of his reactions, which is of course complete nonsense. Oops, sorry about the typo. But you confirm my contention that all the information we have about their work is wrong or contradictory, where it isn’t non-existent. Sitcoms inhabit their own universes. Any resemblance to ours is purely coincidental. You argue these things for the fun of arguing, not to come up with an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/28 "2013-10-21T19:02:57Z")
My impression (from first season only) is that they have positions that don’t really exist (except Howard.) My impression is that they work for the research arm of CalTech which is kind of like IAS, but actually linked to CalTech. IAS is not at all linked to Princeton. I knew a mathematician at IAS and he had no students. Definitely not post-docs since they have no bosses in that sense, and since Sheldon seems way too well known to stay like that. They are not old enough to avoid all teaching. Even very famous people who don’t want to teach teach seminars - Claude Shannon is the only person I know who taught nothing. It seems to me like CERN or someplace like that. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/29 "2013-10-21T21:20:30Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > No it is not. Full time researchers who are neither Ph.D. students, post-docs, nor faculty (professors) are pretty much non-existent at universities, although they can be found at places such as government research institutes and labs run by private industry. The full time researchers at universities are post-docs, on short term (but sometimes renewable) contracts or grants. There are full time, salaried people working in university research labs, but they are the lab technicians, not the researchers. Not always true. In my department (and others) at a state university we had “research faculty” positions, usually MS or PhD. I started as a tech and we had a postdoc that left. The PI couldn’t find a postdoc he liked as a replacement and so hired a MS as research faculty. Other labs had PhDs. The position was “faculty” in title but staff in actuality. As a tech my salary was 50% state money and 50% PI grant money. Research faculty could also be on a combination, but I know a few who were 100% state money. I’ve also seen “Research Specialist” positions at universities that are PhD positions described as higher level than a postdoc but not faculty. As the lab tech, I functioned as the lab manger/staff scientist and had administrative duties such as purchasing, lab certifications, dealing with hazardous waste, etc. The research faculty were pretty much all at the bench. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/30 "2013-10-21T21:24:00Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Oops, sorry about the typo. > > But you confirm my contention that all the information we have about their work is wrong or contradictory, where it isn’t non-existent. Sitcoms inhabit their own universes. Any resemblance to ours is purely coincidental. You argue these things for the fun of arguing, not to come up with an answer. It has to be that way. It’s my casual that everything was factual the show would be boring as hell. Same thing goes for cop shows, doctor shows, and all the rest. Except for soaps. They’re all entirely real life. Maury just came on. I gotta go. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/31 "2013-10-21T22:02:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > My impression (from first season only) is that they have positions that don’t really exist (except Howard.) My impression is that they work for the research arm of CalTech which is kind of like IAS, but actually linked to CalTech. There is no such thing. Actually, Caltech as a whole is essentially a research institution (perhaps like IAS - I am not familiar with how IAS is constituted), but with a very small undergradute teaching university tacked on. Most of its population are researchers, either faculty (but they will also teach), PhD. students, or (probably most numerous, certainly much more so than faculty) post-docs. Post-docs, for the most part, do not teach , but do research full time, and although they will be under the supervision of a professor, they are not merely his peons. They are scientists in their own right. > [@Voyager](#): > > Definitely not post-docs since they have no bosses in that sense, Yes, it is unrealistic that they receive so little supervision (except, occasionally, from the dean) but it is, if anything, far more unrealistic that they do not supervise anybody else, either grad students or lab techs, and that when we see Leonard or Amy in their labs, they are working alone there. Anyway, it is not so very unrealistic that post-docs might , to a very considerable extent, be left to pursue their own research direction. Post-docs are not students, they are researchers, and often well respected ones. Apart from these unrealistic, aspects, and a few other minor points and inconsistencies that are clearly for sitcom convenience (such as lots of free time), Leonard, Sheldon, Raj and Amy fit the profile of post-docs almost perfectly. Whether this is the writers’ intention or just fanwank, I don’t know, but if it is fanwank it is very plausible and consistent fanwank, far more plausible than suggestions either that they are faculty, or that they are some sort of researcher than just does not exist at Caltech (or, for the most part, anywhere else). > [@Voyager](#): > > and since Sheldon seems way too well known to stay like that. In his mind he is, maybe. Maybe not so much in the outside world. Anyway, as I have already said, many scientists with considerable reputations work at the post-doc level for years, and Sheldon is still very young, even taking his accelerated educational career into account. > [@Voyager](#): > > They are not old enough to avoid all teaching. Even very famous people who don’t want to teach teach seminars - Claude Shannon is the only person I know who taught nothing. For most of his career, certainly in his creative heyday, Shannon worked at Bell Labs, an industry lab, so teaching would not have been relevant. > [@Voyager](#): > > It seems to me like CERN or someplace like that. Well it could be, except that we are explicitly told it is Caltech (which, in my view, as someone who has actually been a post-doc at Caltech, is quite a plausible setting for these characters, modulo the dramatic requirements of sitcom land). ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/32 "2013-10-22T00:14:43Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > No it is not. Full time researchers who are neither Ph.D. students, post-docs, nor faculty (professors) are pretty much non-existent at universities There were a number at the university where I got my Ph.D., and it wasn’t even that big of a research university. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/33 "2013-10-22T08:09:39Z")
I haven’t seen much of the show but I think several of them are employed in the private sector as researchers. Not all phds have to teach. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/34 "2013-10-22T14:14:30Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > I haven’t seen much of the show but I think several of them are employed in the private sector as researchers. Not all phds have to teach. Yet they’re seemingly “employed” by CalTech and report to the department chair? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/35 "2013-10-22T16:07:02Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > There is no such thing. Actually, Caltech as a whole is essentially a research institution (perhaps like IAS - I am not familiar with how IAS is constituted), but with a very small undergradute teaching university tacked on. Most of its population are researchers, either faculty (but they will also teach), PhD. students, or (probably most numerous, certainly much more so than faculty) post-docs. Post-docs, for the most part, do not teach , but do research full time, and although they will be under the supervision of a professor, they are not merely his peons. They are scientists in their own right. > > Yes, it is unrealistic that they receive so little supervision (except, occasionally, from the dean) but it is, if anything, far more unrealistic that they do not supervise anybody else, either grad students or lab techs, and that when we see Leonard or Amy in their labs, they are working alone there. Anyway, it is not so very unrealistic that post-docs might , to a very considerable extent, be left to pursue their own research direction. Post-docs are not students, they are researchers, and often well respected ones. I’m quite aware of what post-docs do - my daughter just started one. While she has her own money, she also has some degree of supervision. My field doesn’t have post-docs because we’re too employable right off the bat. 🙂 I’m aware of the fact that the situation in the show doesn’t really exist. I went to MIT, so I’m pretty aware of how these places work. IAS, btw, is totally separate from Princeton, though many people get confused. Von Neumann was the only person I know who had appointments in both Princeton and IAS. Einstein, for example, was never a Princeton professor. So if they worked in a place like IAS they would do stuff like they do in the show but would never be talking to deans. > [@](#): > > Apart from these unrealistic, aspects, and a few other minor points and inconsistencies that are clearly for sitcom convenience (such as lots of free time), Leonard, Sheldon, Raj and Amy fit the profile of post-docs almost perfectly. Whether this is the writers’ intention or just fanwank, I don’t know, but if it is fanwank it is very plausible and consistent fanwank, far more plausible than suggestions either that they are faculty, or that they are some sort of researcher than just does not exist at Caltech (or, for the most part, anywhere else). Except for lack of supervision and the fact that they don’t seem to be interested in their next steps. Though this is a common TV-trope, the Riker problem in a way. I’m pretty familiar with Bell Labs research, and that (or IBM) would fit, but of course they are not associated with universities. This type of researcher does exist - but this exact type of research institution doesn’t, as far as I know. > [@](#): > > In his mind he is, maybe. Maybe not so much in the outside world. Anyway, as I have already said, many scientists with considerable reputations work at the post-doc level for years, and Sheldon is still very young, even taking his accelerated educational career into account. Maybe at the beginning of the show. As a theoretical physicist he is getting a bit long in the tooth already. Anyhow, they keep him around, so he has to have some credibility. > [@](#): > > For most of his career, certainly in his creative heyday, Shannon worked at Bell Labs, an industry lab, so teaching would not have been relevant. His office at MIT was across the hall from my lab. And I have several friends who went from Bell Labs to academia, and they all teach. Of course none of them are Shannon. (But who is?) I got taught by Nobel Prize winners, so, as I said, Shannon was a special case. My point was that if Sheldon were a professor, there was no way he’d have the clout at this point to avoid teaching. Definitely not Leonard. > [@](#): > > Well it could be, except that we are explicitly told it is Caltech (which, in my view, as someone who has actually been a post-doc at Caltech, is quite a plausible setting for these characters, modulo the dramatic requirements of sitcom land). Caltech seems very popular with this kind of show, being close to LA no doubt. See Real Genius. I don’t know about Caltech, but MIT has tons of satellite research institutions which in my day at least were popular with graduates who didn’t want to leave Cambridge. Like I said, they weren’t as closely associated with the university as where these people work, but I can see them mentioning the dean since more of the audience can grasp a university than can grasp a research center. Have they ever been called post-docs? And has anyone ever seen undergrads running around? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/36 "2013-10-22T16:21:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Have they ever been called post-docs? And has anyone ever seen undergrads running around? There’s Alex the Research Assistant, but we haven’t seen her in a while. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/37 "2013-10-22T16:28:22Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > There’s Alex the Research Assistant, but we haven’t seen her in a while. Isn’t Alex a post-grad, not an undergrad? Or is that not the right term for a doctoral candidate? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/38 "2013-10-22T16:30:45Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Isn’t Alex a post-grad, not an undergrad? Or is that not the right term for a doctoral candidate? You’re right, but she’s the only non-Doctor CalTech person we’ve ever seen. And Howard, of course. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/39 "2013-10-23T02:37:52Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > You’re right, but she’s the only non-Doctor CalTech person we’ve ever seen. > > And Howard, of course. No, we’ve seen grad students plenty of times. Riki Lindhome is season 1. The asian prodigy kid. Others I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773/40 "2013-10-23T16:40:08Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The show only shows what happens to them on Thursday night; they probably have classes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday this term. Not Wednesday - that’s Comic Book Store Night. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/professors-job/671773.md?page=3)