Profits are a tax on labor

I have had this investment for nearly 20 years now, and my grandfather had it for decades before that. I know that it pays out every year within a fairly narrow range like a metronome. But the other partners will only offer four or five years’ worth of payouts for it. I would have to be idiotic or desperate to sell at that rate. But since there is no open trading market for these partnerships, I can only theoretically sell it to someone who is not already a partner. As in: “Do you want to buy this weird type of investment you never heard of? It’s a great deal, I promise: you’ll make about 10% return per year” (I can’t conceive of selling it for less than 10 years worth of payments and even that would hurt given the low interest paid out for other forms of steady income producing instruments these days). Pffft, good luck. No, it’s something I’m just effectively stuck with.

See above. If I withdrew and invested the proceeds in something else, my return would be almost certainly a tiny fraction of what it is now unless I got really lucky with a small cap stock or something.

But I’m not providing it. As Linus K keeps pointing out, what’s really happening is that the government is enforcing an abstract concept that I am “providing” it even though I have never been there, I make no decisions that impact anything about the way the buildings are maintained or managed, and I was not yet born when they were originally built. It’s not too great a leap from this arrangement to the classic feudal scenario where, because my grandfather was Lord of Amherst (NY), I have inherited the right to be paid rent by all peasants living within the village over which we claim dominion. It’s absurd, but we are just used to it.

No, I specifically noted things that will still be scarce, like land in desirable locations and for that matter a desirable table at a chic restaurant. But I am positing a scenario where many of the things we think of as having significant value and thus scarcity now, like electronics for instance, will not at that point be scarce. Manufactured goods, as long as you have the space to store them, will be cheap as air is now, as will be the energy to operate them.

Perhaps, but my bet would be on them disappearing later. If they go first, it will likely be a transition involving much more turmoil. If large swaths of the population are unemployable but are part on the dole, that gives them purchasing power to maintain demand for items manufactured with increasing levels of automation. The rich people who own the means of production and some of the managerial class that help organise that production will increasingly find that their riches are mainly good for things like land in nice locations as I have stated.

This kind of transition is already happening to a degree. The percentage of the population in the workforce is smaller than it ever has been; yet many people who are unemployed have things like smart phones. They don’t however live in a nice neighborhood or take swanky vacations.

Linus K is fixated on the capitalism aspect. You’ve generalized it to a “government” concept. However, really it’s an inheritance issue and I don’t see what’s so absurd about it.

Somebody sometime accrued enough value to take that value and invest it into an apartment building. Other people who have not accrued enough value to buy their value want to live somewhere. They can’t afford to buy their own place and you’ve got too much place for you to use on your own so they rent from you. You haven’t built anything tangible but you are providing a service - the service of housing.

Now what happens when you die? Either you’re claiming that inheritance is bullshit and once someone dies, all of their possessions are up for grabs, or inheritance has merit and you’re free to choose who and where things go.

If you want to continue to offer that service of renting out housing, you will be compensated as such. If you don’t offer that service, you won’t be paid. I don’t see what’s so inherently evil, unfair, or absurd about any of this.

In some cases, they do. I know an apartment building just up the street that is for sale. I’m sure my own landlord would entertain an offer.

Yes. Even if something gains value because of something under your control, it can still be unearned income. For example, when the Hunt brothers tried to corner the silver market, the value of silver rose because of something they were doing (trying to corner the silver market). Had they made a profit (I’m not sure they did), it would have still been unearned income, even though it was their own doing.

Some people carry out more than one role in the course of making a living. For example, a small business owner might manage his own business. In that case, some of his income is earned income (his income from managing his business), and the rest if profit (if there is any). The profit part could be defined as the part that would be left over, if he had hired someone else to manage his business for him.

In your example, your farmer is both a worker (someone who does farming) and a small business owner (someone who owns a farming business).

The amount that is profit from owning a farming business (as opposed to self-employment income from being a farmer) is the difference between his actual net income, and what it would have cost him to hire someone else to do the farming.

So, yes: an increase in income from other people having weevils, rather than from the farmer doing more farming, is an increase in the farmer’s unearned income.

To expand on the farmer example:

An increase in the farmer’s earned income would come from working harder, or longer, or more efficiently, or otherwise doing something that resulted in more or better food.

An increase in his unearned income would come at the expense of someone else. So in the weevil example, the price of food goes up, because of weevils. So everyone else must either work harder, to pay the increased price, or consume less.

In the first case, everyone’s better off: the farmer’s richer, and there’s more (or better) food.

In the second example, the farmer’s better off, but only to the extent that other people have less.

Can you identify who’s getting taxed to generate the profits in the first case?

No. Lots of people contribute to making Manhattan a great place to live: by patrolling the streets, or constructing buildings, or performing on Broadway, or whatever. But only property owners benefit from rising rents. In fact, they benefit from rising rents to the exact extent that renters are worse off. There’s no added value. Only a transfer from one group to another.

OK, so here are some of the problems with that position:

  1. You didn’t answer the question about whether the farmer makes unearned income if his crop is just more popular right now. I think if you did, you’d see the following problem: who determines what the “right” price of the crop is?
    Are potatoes overpriced right now? Are potato farmers making unearned income?
    Coffee goes for a lot more than potatoes (by weight), because people really love coffee. Does that mean unearned income for the farmer?

  2. In the OP and throughout this thread, you’ve implied something immoral about unearned income. You’ve asked for a “moral justification” for it.
    The goalposts have moved very far now if we’re talking about a hard-working farmer making a transaction that is voluntary at both sides (the buyer would rather have the crop than the cash) coming under your new definition of unearned income.

In the hypothetical the person did construct a building; something they perhaps would not have done if they could not have made a profit by renting it out.

Yep. And only Java Developers benefit from there being a greater need for Java Developers in the current market.

And just to add to this: I may not benefit from rising property prices, but I benefit from having a place to live.
Profits from rentals encourage building construction. Indeed they may encourage the building of apartments specifically suitable for renters (e.g. 1 bed apartments for young professionals who aren’t ready to settle in a city).

For those many people who want to live in an area, but can’t afford to buy or construct their own property, isn’t it great that rental property exists?
But if the owner couldn’t draw a profit from this transaction, these transactions wouldn’t happen. Everyone would be much worse off.

Suppose I own the country, and I charge rent, and the total amount of rent that I charge is equal to half of all the income of everyone who lives in my country. And that’s all I do - I charge rent, nothing else.

Would you say the value of my contribution - providing the land that everyone lives on - is equal to the value of all the work of everyone else, in order to produce every other thing that’s produced in the country (other than the land that I own)?

Now suppose there’s an income tax, and the income tax is 50% of my income. In fact, let’s say I pay all the income tax. Nobody pays any income tax in the country but me.

Would say, because I pay all the taxes, I’m accomplishing more than anyone else in the country? Would you say I’m accomplishing more than everyone else in the country combined?

Even if all I do is nothing - other than collect rents and pay taxes?

Now suppose I get tired of all these lazy greedy socialists, who are imposing these confiscatory taxes on me, and I decide to pull a John Galt. I find a lost island - maybe the island in “Lost” - where no one can find me. I sell all my land, and sail away with my money.

Now two questions:

  1. Will my former countrymen be better or worse off, without me, the former owner of all their land?
  2. Will I be better or worse off, living alone on my island, with my fifty billion jillion dollars, and no one around to try to steal it from me?

You sold your land. Somebody or somebodies else bought it. Now they own it. Now they pay taxes and reap benefits as do all the rest of us without the need for your largess. Life goes on without you in pretty much the same way. But your money on your lost island has lost all value because you’ve taken it and yourself out of the economy. Smart move. :wink:

Ha, this is great. You should have left the question there, without muddling it with the Galt stuff.

I find it interesting that this is the post of mine you decide to rebut.

If you indeed have people who agree to pay rent to live on your land? Yes. That’s the value of your contribution. If you try charging a higher rent than your contribution of “giving people a place to live”, people will just leave your country for another. This would be the “supply and demand” that I referenced in post # 372 on page 8.

Absolutely. Now even moreso than in scenario 1. In scenario 1, people have already agreed to pay you on a business level and received the goods/services accordingly. In this case, the service is housing. Now they get to benefit from all the ancillary benefits of residing in a fully funded nation without having to actually fund any of it. They get an army to protect them. They get roads, schools, a welfare system, courts of law, police, parks for free. Without you and your generous 100% tax contribution, they would have to pay out of pocket to buy a gun to protect themselves, pay a paving company to put down asphalt, be forced to pay for private school, be shit out of luck if they can’t find a job, live in constant fear of crimes and misdemeanors, buy extra acreage for natural recreation, etc. But thankfully they don’t have to. They signed the lease, agreeing to purchase “kit” (the right to live on your land) and got the “kaboodle” (everything government pays for) for free! Where’s your banana republic exactly? I’d like to apply for a visa post haste.

1 - They’re much worse off. Now they have to pay taxes or suffer the consequences.
2 - You’re much worse off. Now you have no place to live and will have to pay the landlord of Lost island and your assets instead of being 50 billion jillion and counting, is 50 billion jillion, constantly less your monthly rent and living expenses.

It’s not great though, is it? It’s simplistic to the point of being childish because it doesn’t even attempt to deal with how/if this would work in the real world that the rest of us live in.

I’m impressed.
It’s a nice hypothetical because it omits the two most significant things about wealth in the developed world as we know it:

  1. Someone has to trade wealth for wealth. If I want to own a factory, I have to pay for it. This is a gamble.

  2. Investments occur as part of an open market. By investing in a particular thing I am changing the market, and changing the world. On aggregate, supply tends to track demand.
    e.g. Lots of individual decisions to invest in manhatten property means there are more places to live, and rents are cheaper, than they would otherwise be
    (of course if no-one were allowed to draw a profit, because it’s not “morally justified”, rental property wouldn’t exist, period).

So the only legitimate thought experiment would have to list every economic action transacted throughtout their lifetimes by each of the 7.1 billion people on Earth. Got it and will be right on that. :wink:

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. Go from one ridiculous extreme to the other.

Let me pose this question: on what basis do people own land? Sure, they bought it from someone or inherited it from someone. But if you trace that back, how did someone originally get to own it and then sell it and make money from doing so?

And why is no one allowed to own sections of the ocean or of the atmosphere? What would be fundamentally different about that? And in a delta, how firm does the land need to be, or how shallow does the standing water need to be, for what percentage of the year, for someone to own it? I imagine someone has codified these principles; but examining them illustrates, I think, how ultimately arbitrary they are.

Many things are arbitrary. Morals are arbitrary. Political systems are arbitrary. Life is arbitrary in many ways. But we, as humans, have a fundamental need to make sense of the world we live in and to control the things we can control to avoid the chaos that’s always knocking at the door. Societies exist based on mutually agreed upon rules and ethics and morals. And even those change over time. But we all entered into a social contract that respects these seemingly arbitrary rules and we all agree to a large extent on how to go about changing these rules without entirely destroying society in the process. And if air and water needs to be divided (beyond international agreements of national airspace and waters) then we’ll do so. I imagine that one day we’ll divide the moon and other planets too.

So we’ve gone from armchair economist to armchair philosopher?

People own land because as a society we’ve agreed that people can own land. If you want to comment on the rules of that society… say that profits/values earned within that society subscribe to such and such behavior: that all profits are a tax on labor, if it’s fair or not, inheritance issues, etc. then you’re playing within those rules.

If you want to say that ownership of land, and the right to live somewhere isn’t inherent, and should be disregarded, then you’ve not just moved the goal posts. You’ve completely changed the game and that is either woefully disingenuous or woefully ignorant.

There are also laws regarding ownership of oceans and air. Airspace? Fishing rights? International waters? If there’s money to be gained from it, the rights to it have to be protected by rule of law. Otherwise, it’ll degenerate into rule by sword.

However, to question the fact that it can be owned? Even animals can agree to property rights. Their contracts are penned in piss.