# Programmers: How many dead languages do you know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563 "2010-01-11T21:48:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/41 "2010-01-15T02:05:33Z")
> [@foolscap](#): > > SNOBOL I think I still may have my manuals (somewhere). SNOBOL still exists. You can get SNOBOL4 for various modern OSes. > [@](#): > > COBOL 86 is on my DR DOS machine. Did you ever use CP/M? It was made by the same company as DR-DOS. > [@](#): > > While looking for my COBOL manual I found XENIX (where did that come from?):dubious: Xenix was Microsoft’s attempt to make a Unix for the IBM PC. It didn’t exactly set the world on fire. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/42 "2010-01-15T04:05:42Z")
I’m not sure how much Focus is still used for reporting. I literally wrote hundreds of reports in Focus startiing in 1992 thru 1999. > **[FOCUS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS)** > > FOCUS is a fourth-generation programming language (4GL) computer programming language and development environment that is used to build database queries. Produced by Information Builders Inc., it was originally developed for data handling and analysis on the IBM mainframe. Subsequently versions for minicomputers and such as the VAX and other platforms were implemented. FOCUS was later extended to personal computers and (in 1997) to the World Wide Web: the WebFOCUS product. > Information Builders's... I haven’t touched it since 1999. We went from a flat file system to a system that used Oracle. That’s when I had to learn SQL. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RingsOfPylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@RingsOfPylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RingsOfPylon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/43 "2010-01-16T00:29:33Z")
Wow, this is a trip down memory lane. COBOL Fortran DOS Basic RPG II IBM 360 Assembler Some old Univac Assembler Language where you had to use halfwords Eztrieve (IBM COBOL adjunct language for simple maintenance and for reports) Old Operating Systems (don’t remember most of OS names): IBM Mainframes (OS 360/370) Univac/Unisys Mainframes VAX 11/780 Hey guys, you should know that we still have IBM Mainframes running applications that are maintained in COBOL. And, we actually have to develop new programs for these systems. Yes, it’s still out there. It’s truly “the thing that wouldn’t go away”. We have six programmers who do almost 100% of their development there (COBOL, CICS, and Eztrieve). The remaining four “programmers” (myself included) have to have a good working knowledge of both the IBM and COBOL so that we can assist when necessary, and we have to be in the on call rotation so we have to answer questions and address problems at 3:00 am. When one of the programmers moved on last year, it took five months to replace him. Obviously, our developers are older than the normal population. I’d say the average age would be in the mid to late forties, with the oldest being 60 and the youngest 37 (and she’s the “baby” of the group). Thankfully, however, we get to work on/with newer technologies and the four of us who are not dedicated to Cobol/CICS do most of our development to mine data from Oracle and SQL Server databases, which means we get to use a lot of SQL, SAS, SAP, Crystal Reports, Java C and C++ (although some are not all that new), and various other supporting technologies. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/44 "2010-01-16T00:53:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’d disagree that COBOL is dead. There’s still a lot of business’ using older systems in COBOL. Even some of the canned software uses COBOL. People Soft used it up until about 6 years ago. PeopleSoft and JD Edwards (both owned by Oracle) still do. I applied a patch to our PeopleSoft system today and we are current on updates. I’m curious if JCL is really dead. I haven’t been in an MVS mainframe environment in about 15 years but I don’t see how JCL could have been made obsolete. One product that I don’t see in the thread was TI’s [IEF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Engineering_Facility). It generated Cobol programs. We thought it was very cool at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/45 "2010-01-16T00:58:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m not sure how much Focus is still used for reporting. I literally wrote hundreds of reports in Focus startiing in 1992 thru 1999. > [FOCUS - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS) I loved FOCUS. Like SAS, it would do so much of the heavy lifting of report writing for you. It was the first reporting tool that I ever used to create reports where I didn’t have to use my forms ruler. Today’s young whippersnappers don’t even own forms rulers. Get off of my lawn! ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/46 "2010-01-16T04:31:09Z")
I haven’t developed anything other than bash scripts for the last 10 years or so…so pretty much ALL I know are dead languages. ☹ .ASP JavaScript (yeah, not dead, but still.) The usual basics (Apple, Microsoft, QuickBasic) I wrote a mouse handler in Apple’s basic. Also the basic built into the TI-99/4a Logo Pascal (Turbo…but there was also one for the Amiga…it loaded it’s own OPERATING SYSTEM before you could code in it) C, dabbled a little in C++ MOSS Basic (used in roadway design) FORTRAN 77 The languages used in HP-41’s, 28s and 48s. Radioshack sold a programmable calculator with a version of basic…one big flat memory model. I wrote different probrams by starting them at 100 line number intervals. ([Radio Shack PC-4 | A collection of programmable and non-programmable calculators](http://calculators.torensma.net/index.php?page.id=16&calculator.id=423&action=detail&#image)) I took CA’s first class in Denver teaching Java. I knew OO programming based on a little exposure to C++, but man, I was LOST programming Java…I dunno if it was the curricula or me. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/47 "2010-01-16T04:57:00Z")
I took an entire semester of [Modula-2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modula-2) as an undergraduate EE student in the late 1980s. An entire semester! Never heard of it? Didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/48 "2010-01-16T05:14:06Z")
A lot of stuff has already been mentioned. PDP-8, PDP-11 assembly, DCL, Datatrieve, Forth, 6502 assembly (and I’m sure others I can’t remember). Dead operating systems included DEC OSF/1, Ultrix, Tru64 UNIX, RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS and MUMPS. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/49 "2010-01-16T05:18:09Z")
Guess we should mention Ms DOS. R.I.P. I started with Ver 2.2 it wasn’t quite as primitive as the earlier 1.x versions. I wrote a lot of batch files. Anyone recall the misery of fixing a Ms Dos machine? We spent hours working on autoexec.bat and config.sys. Trying to get things to load in the right order, without conflicts. Some of those old TSR applications could give a pc fits. Fixing autoexec.bat and config.sys is a lost art. ---
**Author:** ![RingsOfPylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@RingsOfPylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RingsOfPylon)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/50 "2010-01-16T14:57:02Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > PeopleSoft and JD Edwards (both owned by Oracle) still do. I applied a patch to our PeopleSoft system today and we are current on updates. > > I’m curious if JCL is really dead. I haven’t been in an MVS mainframe environment in about 15 years but I don’t see how JCL could have been made obsolete. > > One product that I don’t see in the thread was TI’s [IEF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Engineering_Facility). It generated Cobol programs. We thought it was very cool at the time. I can verify that JCL is alive and well in a number of places. I’ve heard of PeopleSoft; it was very popular for a while. Never used IEF. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/51 "2010-01-16T16:52:22Z")
I’m of that certain age to have done a lot of the ones mentioned so far, including assembler for the 360. Not 370; there are some differences. Though I later did 370s too. And the various PDP minis. A couple I haven’t seen mentioned here yet is SPL-3000 for the HP 3000 mini. 16KB of RAM for a 20-user timesharing system. Feel the Awesome Power. W00t!! As well as their proprietary non-relational database & reporting engine called “Image”. I also worked a bit in the HP-specific flavors of COBOL and Basic. They even had a Basic which ran on an intelligent RS-232 terminal, which in many ways is akin to the javascript-in-the-browser paradigm of today. And CP/M in several of its various incarnations. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/52 "2010-01-18T17:15:32Z")
Commodore BASIC 2.0 (C64) and 7.0 (C128). I _loved_ the new features in 7.0 - doing video and sound natively was a great improvement over filling my code with tons of POKEs. I still hold out hope that 6502 assembly isn’t completely dead yet but I’m prepared to accept its demise. I still have a list somewhere of all the undocumented codes. QBasic, QuickBasic, TRS-80 BASIC (though I’ve pretty much forgotten it all) and a few other BASIC flavors that were never popular in the first place. Visual Basic 6 is not quite extinct; I currently use it at work. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/53 "2010-01-18T17:37:04Z")
I cut my teeth programing & supporting a hierarchical database on a Honeywell mainframe. The database was similar to IBM’s IMS and we had a transaction manager similar to IMS TM. I always thought the switch to relational databases was a step backward. But, nearly everyone uses that database model today. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/54 "2010-01-19T15:02:15Z")
When I started this thread I knew that there would be comments that some of these languages are not dead. COBOL is a good example. I may be dead before COBOL is rolled into the morgue. A better question might have been, “What languages do you know that are dead, on life support, or in a vegetative state?” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/55 "2010-01-19T18:01:12Z")
Was PL/1 the language IBM used for the Series/1 minicomputers? I spent a few years programming those. God, I haven’t thought about SNOBOL in 30 years. Learned it in college and never touched it again. At the same time, I also took a class in computer simulation (like a program to simulate a bus line) that used **LISP** , specifically because it was good at simulations. There was one language that I always wound up with statements with 12 parentheses. Might’ve been LISP. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/56 "2010-01-19T18:06:39Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Was PL/1 the language IBM used for the Series/1 minicomputers? I spent a few years programming those. It is one of the languages that the IBM Series/1 supported. In my list of dead languages earlier in this thread, I mentioned EDL ([Event Driven Language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_Driven_Language)), which was solely used on the Series/1. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/57 "2010-01-19T20:59:42Z")
I could still be hired for COBOL and RPG work so they’re [not quite dead](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs). 650x Assemblers Numerous BASIC implementions before VB. Clipper One that I haven’t seen in the list, PDS-Adept And there’s one other that I just cannot remember the name of. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/58 "2010-01-19T21:02:21Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > It is one of the languages that the IBM Series/1 supported. In my list of dead languages earlier in this thread, I mentioned EDL ([Event Driven Language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_Driven_Language)), which was solely used on the Series/1. EDL! That’s the one. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/59 "2010-01-19T21:42:41Z")
I said it before, but it bears repeating: Reverse Polish Notation is a wonderful, arcane, thing and it’s sad that society at large will lose it sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563/60 "2010-01-19T21:43:19Z")
Not to mention it’s a great phrase to drop casually in conversation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/programmers-how-many-dead-languages-do-you-know/524563.md?page=4)