# Progressive Apologism for Islam: why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2016, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028 "2016-07-16T05:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/221 "2016-09-21T17:49:50Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Even for as bad as the reprisals against individual Muslims are for jihadism, liberals need to stop acting like that stuff is worse than Radical Islamic terror itself. What liberal has said that throwing pig’s blood at a mosque is worse than Radical Islamic Terror? As usual, you just make shit up. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/222 "2016-09-21T18:44:24Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > This stuff really makes “progressives” look like a joke; I used to be one back in the 2000s, but can’t call myself one anymore, largely over this, and their hatred of Israel, which I suspect colours their views on Islamic radicalism. Don’t think this has been mentioned yet, but progressives like this administration?: [The U.S. Agrees to Give Israel Record $38 Billion in Military Aid | Fortune](http://fortune.com/2016/09/13/us-israel-military-aid/) > [@](#): > > The deal will represent the biggest pledge of U.S. military assistance ever made to any country… ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/223 "2016-09-22T16:08:08Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > Don’t think this has been mentioned yet, but progressives like this administration?: [The U.S. Agrees to Give Israel Record $38 Billion in Military Aid | Fortune](http://fortune.com/2016/09/13/us-israel-military-aid/) nice tangent. This is a thread about Islam, not Israel, even tho Israel is a nation of winners bc they fight Islamic terror and honour capitalism, freedom, and liberal democracy. Obama knows he’d only help Trump by vetoing it, and making the Democrats look soft on Islamic terror by opposing a nation that fights Islamic terror. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stainless_steel_rat/32/5727_2.png) [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/224 "2016-09-22T16:18:22Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > nice tangent. > > This is a thread about Islam, not Israel, even tho Israel is a nation of winners bc they fight Islamic terror and honour capitalism, freedom, and liberal democracy. Obama knows he’d only help Trump by vetoing it, and making the Democrats look soft on Islamic terror by opposing a nation that fights Islamic terror. I would note that you started the tangent, i.e., > [@](#): > > This stuff really makes “progressives” look like a joke; I used to be one back in the 2000s, but can’t call myself one anymore, largely over this, and\*\*\* their hatred of Israel\*\*\*, But I’ll leave it at that and not respond to your…interesting…take. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/225 "2016-09-22T16:19:09Z")
The Israel, home of the kibbutz… it honors capitalism. Funny person this derek, he is not only a racist bigot who does the bad job of pretending to be a left wing person, he lives in a fantasy world. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/226 "2016-09-22T17:33:25Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The Israel, home of the kibbutz… it honors capitalism. Funny person this derek, he is not only a racist bigot who does the bad job of pretending to be a left wing person, he lives in a fantasy world. Ignorant bigoted cowards like **Derek** will try to avoid the real world so they won’t learn how ignorant, bigoted, and cowardly they are. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/227 "2016-09-22T18:01:28Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > That’s only if you were to believe that the only two options here are being either a peace loving hippy or a mouth frothing terrorist. Which is nonsense. > > Sure, a lot of Muslim countries are extremely conservative, particularly those in Authoritarian dictatorships… but that’s hardly unique to Islam. You can find those extreme forms of conservatism in Communist countries, Nazi countries, Catholic dictatorships, Ortodox Jews… > > Poverty, repression, constant brainwashing- those are the real causes of extremism. While I obviously agree with much of what you’re saying blaming the rise of radical Islam on “poverty” is silly. Muhammad Atta and Bin Laden weren’t from poor families. In fact Muslim radicals are far more likely to come from educated, relatively well-off families. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/228 "2016-09-22T18:08:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > While I obviously agree with much of what you’re saying blaming the rise of radical Islam on “poverty” is silly. Muhammad Atta and Bin Laden weren’t from poor families. In fact Muslim radicals are far more likely to come from educated, relatively well-off families. But most of the foot soldiers, suicide bombers, etc., are poor. Take away the poverty, and ISIS would lose most of their fighters, as well as most of the recruiting efforts. Recruiting the truly desperate is much, much easier than recruiting the comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/229 "2016-09-22T18:13:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > While I obviously agree with much of what you’re saying blaming the rise of radical Islam on “poverty” is silly. Muhammad Atta and Bin Laden weren’t from poor families. In fact Muslim radicals are far more likely to come from educated, relatively well-off families. So did the European left radicals of an earlier era, Bolsheviks leaderships and similar. This is not a counter point, it is a superficiality. The frustrated middle that is angered by the lack of the progress, the evident injustices in their society, and having the intellectual tools to organize a response, they are always the typical leadership of the radical organization. the fact that they are, it does not refute the roots in a certain frustration with a corruption or an oligarchy and the poverty or at least the economic stagnation that comes with it. A Bin Laden has an idea of social justice and a frustration with real injustices. His solution of course was evil, but the roots are correctly seen in this reality. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/230 "2016-09-22T18:18:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But most of the foot soldiers, suicide bombers, etc., are poor. Take away the poverty, and ISIS would lose most of their fighters, as well as most of the recruiting efforts. Recruiting the truly desperate is much, much easier than recruiting the comfortable. I didn’t say “the comfortable”. More like “the frustrated middle class”. And no, I wouldn’t assume most of the volunteers going to serve ISIS are poor or uneducated. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/231 "2016-09-22T18:20:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But most of the foot soldiers, suicide bombers, etc., are poor. Take away the poverty, and ISIS would lose most of their fighters, as well as most of the recruiting efforts. Recruiting the truly desperate is much, much easier than recruiting the comfortable. And much of the motivation of the more talented of the leaderships. there will always be the radical discontents, but the attraction of more then the smallest fringe, this is rooted in some real problems which they provide bad solutions for them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/232 "2016-09-22T18:50:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I didn’t say “the comfortable”. More like “the frustrated middle class”. And no, I wouldn’t assume most of the volunteers going to serve ISIS are poor or uneducated. Not the ones coming from abroad, but the “local” ISIS fighters (who make up the majority IIRC), I believe, are mostly poor. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/233 "2016-09-22T19:03:13Z")
Lets not forget that the entire region has a very long and storied history of tribalism and factionalism. Islam initially came in and replaced all that with one internal faction and external enemies, but that soon devolved back into internal factionalism, same as pretty much every Human organization ever. So this is another faction, which grew rapidly, recruiting from the disaffected, as it scored victory after victory and expanded from Syria to the very doors of Baghdad. There are always a fuckton of disaffected youth, and older people for that matter. Everywhere. Daesh (I refuse to use 'ISIS 'as I have my own affection for Isis, the Egyptian Goddess) gave them a place to be a part of, a growing organization to seek power in, and an outlet for a lot of regular, average mopey angst and anger. _ **Just as we have these same kind of assholes in our nation occupying parks and threatening internal war over their perceived oppression.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/234 "2016-09-22T20:10:05Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Lets not forget that the entire region has a very long and storied history of tribalism and factionalism. So as every other human region as of course the Europe has been so free of factionalism and factionalist and ethno-tribalistic warfare these centuries. > [@](#): > > same as pretty much every Human organization ever . et voila so beni adam beni adam. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/235 "2016-09-22T20:17:46Z")
Quelle le fuq? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/236 "2016-09-23T02:19:44Z")
Just because a few middle class people join doesn’t change that it’s mostly full of poorer people. The actual connection will be people who feel powerless, and that’s more likely to be poor people, with a few stragglers who are less poor. There’s a reason why there’s less of this sort of thing in richer countries, even among people who clearly feel oppressed. Just look at the Shooting War thread in GD. We’re too content to go that far. ISIS/Daesh/ISIL/IS are not. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/237 "2016-09-23T04:25:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just because a few middle class people join doesn’t change that it’s mostly full of poorer people. The actual connection will be people who feel powerless, and that’s more likely to be poor people, with a few stragglers who are less poor. > > There’s a reason why there’s less of this sort of thing in richer countries, even among people who clearly feel oppressed. Just look at the Shooting War thread in GD. We’re too content to go that far. ISIS/Daesh/ISIL/IS are not. You’re not very familiar with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt are you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028.md?page=11)