# Progressive Apologism for Islam: why? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2016, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028 "2016-07-16T05:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/61 "2016-07-16T13:19:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And that means every Muslim is guilty of terrorism? > > You know that’s racism, right? > > And liberals have staked out the controversial position that racism is bad. Islam is not a race. Assuming the existence of free will it’s a voluntarily held ideology. If we can critique fascism or communism we can critique Islam. And I don’t care about the crusades. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/62 "2016-07-16T13:21:55Z")
Just shut the fuck up, **DM00**. You’ve exceeded your quota of ignorant bigot for the thread in your opening post. Don’t you get tired of being consistently wrong? And no, believing you’re right despite evidence to the contrary is not some sort of virtue - it’s just the [Dunning-Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) on display. Seek professional help, you fucking imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/63 "2016-07-16T13:25:11Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > There you go again Yes here you again with your lies and half truths, you are a bigotted scum liar. for example > [@](#): > > Nice ([and ISIS has now claimed responsibility](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-attacks-nice-raid-idUSKCN0ZW0DT)) . Indeed DAESH claims responsiiblities for lots of things, but did not even know the name of the person - but it fits your genocidaire narratives of hate and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/64 "2016-07-16T13:28:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Just shut the fuck up, **DM00**. You’ve exceeded your quota of ignorant bigot for the thread in your opening post. Don’t you get tired of being consistently wrong? And no, believing you’re right despite evidence to the contrary is not some sort of virtue - it’s just the [Dunning-Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect) on display. Seek professional help, you fucking imbecile. Are you punching up or down? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/65 "2016-07-16T13:35:18Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course everyone should keep in mind the moral compass of this worthless person, who asserted it was fine to atomic bomb the civilians of the japanese cities to ‘save them’ from the Soviets and communism - of course in his usual style of the half-truth and the omissioin, it was the Americans who pushed the Soviets to in the last minutes even go to war with the Japan… creating his moral excuse. Either gross ignorance or more likely grotesque fear driven excuse making for any action at all. For the sake of the historical truth of the matter, there was nothing ‘last minute’ about America getting the Soviet Union to enter the war against Japan (and neither was there anything ‘opportunistic’ about the Soviet entry into the war). Stalin agreed in principle to enter the war against Japan once Germany had been defeated at [Tehran in November 1943](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Conference) and specifically to enter the war against Japan within three months of the defeat of Germany at the [Yalta Conference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference) in February 1945. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > while this thread is about the constant denial/obfuscation about Islam-inspired extremism and progressives convincing themselves Islam is some bastion of progressivism, you do know that the US supplied weapons to the USSR in the years before we entered the war while the Bolsheviks were bogged down, and the main reason the Soviets suffered so bad was because Stalin purged the army and the early warners (see [“In the Court of the Red Czar” by Simon Montefiore](https://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Court-Simon-Sebag-Montefiore/dp/1400076781)), right? You do know that you are entirely full of shit, right? It’s rather physically impossible for the US to have supplied weapons to the USSR ‘in the years before we entered the war while the Bolsheviks were bogged down’ when the German invasion of the Soviet Union (June 22, 1941) only happened half a year before Pearl Harbor (December 7, 1941). Add to that US lend lease aid to the Soviet Union only began in [October 1941](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#US_deliveries_to_the_USSR), two months before the US was at war. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Is it because since GWB launched a war on terror, the want to see the world opposite him? Oh yeah, GWB invading Iraq had fuck-all to do with the war on terror, but you knew that already, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/66 "2016-07-16T13:37:31Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Muslims are a religious group, while Mormons and evangelicals sects of a religious group. It’s pretty sad you can only compare Muslims to sects, because if you compared all Americans who practice any sort of Christianity to all Muslims who practice any sort of Islam, Islam wouldn’t look as good. Actually, Muslim Americans almost match Christian Americans in support for gay rights. Only a [2% difference](http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su) in their support for gay marriage. Statistically, Muslim Americans are also less likely to shoot you than Christian Americans, per capita. > [@](#): > > The comparison fails too since the Muslim population isn’t anywhere close to the evangelical/Mormon populations here, thankfully. It’s not far from the Mormon population – about 3 and half million Muslims in America, and about 6 million Mormons. Do you ever get tired of being ignorant and factually wrong so often? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/67 "2016-07-16T13:43:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Statistically, Muslim Americans are also less likely to shoot you than Christian Americans, per capita. Well that proves just how goddamn un-American they are ! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/68 "2016-07-16T13:44:05Z")
Thank you, **Ramira** , for clarifying some of these Arabic words for us. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/69 "2016-07-16T13:50:42Z")
Missed edit window … forgot to add something Pit-worthy: “There is only one God, and His prophet is Muhammad” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/70 "2016-07-16T13:58:49Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > For the sake of the historical truth of the matter, there was nothing ‘last minute’ about America getting the Soviet Union to enter the war against Japan (and neither was there anything ‘opportunistic’ about the Soviet entry into the war). Stalin agreed in principle to enter the war against Japan once Germany had been defeated at [Tehran in November 1943](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Conference) and specifically to enter the war against Japan within three months of the defeat of Germany at the [Yalta Conference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference) in February 1945. That is not accurate or you misunderstand me. The Soviets dragged their feet and tried to do nothing. It was the constant American pressure and a last minute opportunism that saw the Soviets bother to do anything on the Japanese front. edited to add: I wrote in the last minutes of the war, I was refering to the Soviets finally intervening against the Japan not the American pressure, which yes is years in the making - it only highlights the gross hyposcrisy of Derek in his narrative. So yes, the Soviets enter the war at the last minute and only from the American pressure, but Derek as part of his usual constant whirlwind of spinning ignores the Americans being the very source of the Soviet intervention and claims the Americans “saved” the Japanese from the communism… He is gross lying hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/71 "2016-07-16T14:18:42Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > When I did say ever Muslim was guilty of terror? I do argue if one engages in mass murder while shouting Allahu Akbar, that’s the definition of Islamic terrorism. > > Also, there you liberals go again making Islam into a race so u can frame it in terms of skin color. Islam is not a race or ethnicity!! What’s next: when people criticize Christianity, the retort be “you hate white people?” Yes, you have said every Muslim is guilty of terrorism. That’s what you do when you say Islam is the problem. Terrorism is the problem. Some terrorists are Muslims; some terrorists are not Muslims. Some Muslims are terrorists; some Muslims are not terrorists. When you equate Islam with terrorism, that’s racism. When you start arguing about the definition of racism and say that you’re not racist because technically Muslims aren’t a race, you just embarrass yourself. A second time, because you’ve already embarrassed yourself by posting things which demonstrate you’re a racist. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/72 "2016-07-16T14:33:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Actually, Muslim Americans almost match Christian Americans in support for gay rights. Only a [2% difference](http://reason.com/blog/2016/06/13/in-america-muslims-are-more-likely-to-su) in their support for gay marriage. Statistically, Muslim Americans are also less likely to shoot you than Christian Americans, per capita. the difference with Christians overall is 4%, the difference with Muslims is 10%, thats 2.5x the difference. Also, Christian majority countries don’t have the kind of LGBT record as Muslim-majority countries in modern times (and no, I don’t give a shit about 200 years ago). And this is when there arent enough Muslims in America for them to cluster together in enclaves (or history for that like with Mormons); they have to associate with others now. If we increase the Islam population enough in this country, it will be like Europe and they’ll become much more insular and regressive. Also, you ever notice me praising Christianity? NO! I just don’t critique it as I do Islam, because I don’t need to. Notice how all the other non-Christian groups support gay marriage in huge numbers? Ever notice how the overall sample is much more pro marriage-equality than Muslims too? Why is this?? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/73 "2016-07-16T14:38:20Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > the difference with Christians overall is 4%, the difference with Muslims is 10%, thats 2.5x the difference. No it’s not. The Christian American support for gay marriage is 44%; the Muslim American support is 42%. You’re probably looking at the “all affiliated” number at 46%, which is just all people who identify as religious, and the “all Americans” at 53%. Yes, religious people in general are more supportive of gay marriage than Muslims and Christians, and Americans in general are more supportive of gay marriage than religious Americans. > [@](#): > > Also, Christian majority countries don’t have the kind of LGBT record as Muslim-majority countries in modern times (and no, I don’t give a shit about 200 years ago). Right – you don’t care about history, don’t care about the past, you’re only interested in bashing Muslims. There’s nothing special about Islam. There’s something special about instability and poverty, which are unfortunately much more common in the Muslim world than the Western world. > [@](#): > > And this is when there arent enough Muslims in America for them to cluster together in enclaves (or history for that like with Mormons); they have to associate with others now. Bullshit. Ever heard of Dearborn Michigan? Medium sized city, very large Muslim population. And pretty damn open, tolerant, and progressive. > [@](#): > > If we increase the Islam population enough in this country, it will be like Europe and they’ll become much more insular and regressive. Says the ignorant bigot… I’m not convinced. > [@](#): > > Also, you ever notice me praising Christianity? NO! I just don’t critique it as I do Islam, because I don’t need to. Notice how all the other non-Christian groups support gay marriage in huge numbers? Ever notice how the overall sample is much more pro marriage-equality than Muslims too? Why is this?? Because religion tends to be anti-gay marriage, and those other groups are typically less religious, whatever they identify as. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/74 "2016-07-16T14:50:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not. The Christian American support for gay marriage is 44%; the Muslim American support is 42%. Let’s see: Christians (overall): 44 s, 48 o, difference is **4%**. Muslims (overall): 42 s, 52 o, difference is **10%**. 4% vs. 10%; 10 = 4 x 2.5. Simple math. Tho if you do look at non-Protestant groups, When I said non-Christians, I mean Hindus: 68 s, 23 o, difference is 45%. Buddhists: 84 s, 13 o, difference is 71%. Jews: 77 s, 18 o, difference: 69%. [You can read for yourself](http://www.pewforum.org/files/2015/11/201.11.03_RLS_II_full_report.pdf). And of course, the potential [new Muslim immigrants are far less tolerant than the few Muslims here now.](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – you don’t care about history, don’t care about the past, you’re only interested in bashing Muslims. I don’t care about scenarios from the past that aren’t directly related to today. Christendom got over religion in politics in a way Islamic society (the anologue of Christendom, not Christianity) has not. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s nothing special about Islam. There’s something special about instability and poverty, which are unfortunately much more common in the Muslim world than the Western world. If its all about poverty and instability, (non-Muslim) sub-Saharan Africa has things far worse. Where’s the global jihad in the name and cause of them?? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bullshit. Ever heard of Dearborn Michigan? Medium sized city, very large Muslim population. And pretty damn open, tolerant, and progressive. One example, and a relatively small one. And a metro city, of course the place as a whole overall is “progressive;” its not because of Islam. You do know Muslims voted heavily for W. in 2000, mainly over social issues, and only turned away from the GOP because of Iraq, right? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/75 "2016-07-16T14:59:25Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Jonestown, Hitler, Bosnia, Cossacks cleansing Jews, The troubles, the crusades, planned parenthood bombing, the kkk, etc etc. [Hitler gutted the church and sought](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Persecution_of_the_Churches) [to ultimately eliminate it](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D00EEDC1739E33BBC4B53DFB7668389659EDE&legacy=true). Also, how often do PP bombings happen? Jonestown wasn’t part of a global movement as these jihadists attacks are. The attempt on your part to liken even those other things to Muslim jihadism is typical obfuscation I don’t even need to address. And for the last time, the Crusades was 1000 years ago. Progressives and Islamists need to get the fuck over it. Plus, the Crusades were revenge for the Fitnas the caliphates of the time waged against Europe; both were good examples of religious savagery. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/76 "2016-07-16T15:05:03Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Also, how often do PP bombings happen? More often than people shoot up Orlando night clubs. Still not my point. Go back and read my post again. I made my point explicit. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/77 "2016-07-16T15:10:25Z")
How does the OP explain Bill Maher? [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOnrlVxUZ_w) The Jihadists and the US fundy Christian Teahadists view the world in a similar fashion and have many idea in common. Mostly I feel a good deal of distain for both. On the other hand, I’m not in favor of ripping up the Constitution. So am I apologizing for Islam when I say I do not favor a ban on Muslims entering the country, special surveillance of Mosques, and forcing Muslims to sign special pledges? Or am I simply supporting the Constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/78 "2016-07-16T15:14:57Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Also, Christian majority countries don’t have the kind of LGBT record as Muslim-majority countries in modern times (and no, I don’t give a shit about 200 years ago). > [@](#): > > If its all about poverty and instability, (non-Muslim) sub-Saharan Africa has things far worse. Where’s the global jihad in the name and cause of them?? Funny you should ask that. So how about 0 years ago but in similar historical and economic contexts as much of the Middle East ? Like, say, in sub-Saharan Africa, where the very Christian majority [organizes honest to Og witch hunts against children](http://mgafrica.com/article/2014-08-21-child-witches-in-africa-far-from-being-a-traditional-belief-it-is-a-modern-invention), and national newspapers [dox homosexuals](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/uganda/10659920/Ugandan-paper-accused-of-witch-hunt-as-it-publishes-list-of-200-top-homosexuals.html) ? And then you have the likes of the Lord’s Resistance Army; which you don’t want to read about right after lunch. I mean that. > [@](#): > > ``` > If we increase the Islam population enough in this country, it will be like Europe and they'll become much more insular and regressive. > > ``` Oh hey ! You know nothing about Europe either ! Who coulda thunk ?! > [@](#): > > One example, and a relatively small one. That’d be because there are like five Muslims in the US, total, you disingenuous tool. Of course every example is going to be an isolated, small-to-middling community. Well, except maybe for the NOI, but then they have about as much in common with mainstream Islam as fortune cookies have with Chinese cuisine. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/79 "2016-07-16T15:15:30Z")
We cannot win a war against all of Islam, which is what we will be waging if we keep painting the whole religion as potential terrorists. We need the cooperation of Muslim allies, so we should stop doing everything we can to alienate them. Tough guys finish last. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028/80 "2016-07-16T15:25:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you ever get tired of being ignorant and factually wrong so often? Of course he doesn’t; he’s going with his strengths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-apologism-for-islam-why/760028.md?page=5)