# Progressive Reinforcement Training for dogs? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053 "2012-09-27T19:45:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/1 "2012-09-27T19:45:52Z")
Any opinions on this??? Apparently it uses no ‘physical or psychological intimidation.’ I have a friend (seriously!) who really believes in it, but he’s also into some various woo stuff, too, so I’m inclined to immediately discount it. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/2 "2012-09-27T19:58:32Z")
so…what is it? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/3 "2012-09-27T20:26:35Z")
IMO, it depends on the dog. Some dogs do wonderfully with this sort of training, others…not so much. Basically, it’s training using positive reinforcements only. Bad behaviour is ignored, good behaviour rewarded. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/4 "2012-09-27T20:29:39Z")
What like clicker training? it’s operant conditioning - a fairly established mammailian training method use by sea lion trainers, horse trainers, dog trainers, and once, by House MD to train a 2 year old. -The best thing about it is, it “trains the trainer” to be extremely observant of their animal. I’ve used it with horses and in my opinion it is not a complete solution to horse training BUT it is an extremely effective technique for creating specific desired behavior, less effective at eliminating undesired behavior (except by replacement, which takes a while). As long as you pay attention and have very clearly formed goals in mind. A LOT of attention. VERY clear goals. Once I accidentally trained my horse to lick the target instead of touch it with her nose because I didn’t pay attention to what I clicked. Once you’ve made a mistake like that it’s a bitch to reshape the behavior. It took several months to undo the lick-the-target task which was formed in about 15 minutes. In the end I found it most effective to combine majority positive reinforcement with occaisional negative (firm NO, or stronger correction for dangerous behavior). ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/5 "2012-09-27T21:38:41Z")
Dog trainers are kind of notorious for picking and choosing the bits of various training methods that they like, giving it a name and/or trademark, and dismissing the rest of the field. I googled up a [Progressive Reinforcement Training Manifesto](http://lunastraininglevels.blogspot.com/2010/10/progressive-reinforcement-training-new.html). It reads OK, but, like **Hello Again** , I’d be skeptical of a trainer that is trying to completely remove punishment from their repertoire entirely. (Oh, and clicker training kids - and adults! - is becoming more widely accepted, check out [http://www.tagteach.com/](http://www.tagteach.com/)) Note that punishment can have a different definition in behaviorism than in casual use. For example, I mostly use positive reinforcement to train my dogs, but we also have a Scat Mat which gives a brief electrical shock (positive punishment) to keep them out of the kitchen. I’ve seen my dogs get shocked exactly once each, and we have actually turned off the mat entirely - its presence is now enough of a reinforcer to keep them out of the kitchen. I work at a zoo, and all the animal training we do is couched in positive reinforcement, and built on a foundation of trust. **Earl Snake-Hips Tucker** , I’m sorry your friend is gullible, but in this case, perhaps you should give him the benefit of the doubt. If anyone is looking to learn more about animal training, I recommend Karen Pryor’s **Reaching the Animal Mind**. (I currently train: rats, porcupines, hedgehogs, ferrets, fruit bats, rabbits, skunks, opossums, a crow and a parrot.) ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/6 "2012-09-27T21:52:08Z")
Clicker training when done right, is amazingly effective in a very short amount of time ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/7 "2012-09-27T21:58:44Z")
**araminty** , I’d have to agree. I’ve also noticed that many people who swear by some particular training fad often have a very different idea than I do of what constitutes a “well-behaved dog”. Some methods are worse for this than others. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/8 "2012-09-27T22:04:22Z")
My girlfriend’s dog is extremely food motivated, so positive-only training was pretty easy. The hardest thing to teach was not freaking out at cars, but now when they go by he just sits and waits for a treat, which is just his regular kibble. I’m not sure it would have been so easy with other did I’ve known. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/9 "2012-09-28T04:53:11Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > Note that punishment can have a different definition in behaviorism than in casual use. For example, I mostly use positive reinforcement to train my dogs, but we also have a Scat Mat which gives a brief electrical shock (positive punishment) to keep them out of the kitchen. I’ve seen my dogs get shocked exactly once each, and we have actually turned off the mat entirely - its presence is now enough of a reinforcer to keep them out of the kitchen. Sorry, behaviorism nitpick time! The Scat Mat is a differential stimulus for punishment (a stimulus that signals that punishment will occur), not a reinforcer. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/10 "2012-09-28T07:33:07Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > I work at a zoo, and all the animal training we do is couched in positive reinforcement, and built on a foundation of trust. **Earl Snake-Hips Tucker** , I’m sorry your friend is gullible, but in this case, perhaps you should give him the benefit of the doubt. If anyone is looking to learn more about animal training, I recommend Karen Pryor’s **Reaching the Animal Mind**. > > (I currently train: rats, porcupines, hedgehogs, ferrets, fruit bats, rabbits, skunks, opossums, a crow and a parrot.) This is standard in training dolphins too, which I had a bit of experience with. The same Karen Pryor also wrote an interesting book, _Lads Before The Wind_ a memoir of her experiences as the head dolphin trainer and curator at Sea Life Park, Hawaii. She discusses some of the training techniques there too. (I met her and various others in the field at various marine mammal trainer conferences over several years, in the early 1980’s.) ETA: She also has interesting anecdotes about training penguins and river otters. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/11 "2012-09-28T13:35:17Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > Dog trainers are kind of notorious for picking and choosing the bits of various training methods that they like, giving it a name and/or trademark, and dismissing the rest of the field. I googled up a [Progressive Reinforcement Training Manifesto](http://lunastraininglevels.blogspot.com/2010/10/progressive-reinforcement-training-new.html). It reads OK, but, like **Hello Again** , I’d be skeptical of a trainer that is trying to completely remove punishment from their repertoire entirely. Are “time outs” and reprimanding with the word “no” allowed in this training method? If so, then it sounds pretty much like what we do with our rescue pup, and it works well (at least with him. He is treat-motivated, toy-motivated, and doesn’t like being left away from his humans.) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/12 "2012-09-28T14:17:05Z")
I only use positive reinforcement to train. I will use very mild negative reinforcement in cases of time-critical lifesaving, like if one of the dogs lunges at the cat as he zooms by on his night-time crazies, I’ll yell “NO!” But that’s about the size of it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/13 "2012-09-28T15:44:27Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > Sorry, behaviorism nitpick time! The Scat Mat is a differential stimulus for punishment (a stimulus that signals that punishment will occur), not a reinforcer. Nitpick of a nitpick. This is classical conditioning, not a punishment. Operant conditioning has punishments and reinforcements, classical conditioning only has stimuli and responses. Reinforcement training can achieve amazing results. However the part about only using reinforcement and never punishment is better suited to animals other than dogs. There are some animals who could respond violently to a punishment or give up. Dogs are pack animals and dogs in the wild use punishment all the time. If you are trying to eliminate a behavior quickly, punishment is probably going to work better, however too much punishment can damage a relationship with a dog so it should be used sparingly. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/14 "2012-09-28T16:31:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Nitpick of a nitpick. This is classical conditioning, not a punishment. Operant conditioning has punishments and reinforcements, classical conditioning only has stimuli and responses. > Reinforcement training can achieve amazing results. However the part about only using reinforcement and never punishment is better suited to animals other than dogs. There are some animals who could respond violently to a punishment or give up. Dogs are pack animals and dogs in the wild use punishment all the time. If you are trying to eliminate a behavior quickly, punishment is probably going to work better, however too much punishment can damage a relationship with a dog so it should be used sparingly. Hmm, I think I disagree. The dog avoiding the kitchen due to the Scat Mat is operant, not classical conditioning. Classical conditioning pairs a previously neutral stimulus with a punishing/reinforcing stimulus, causing the neutral stimulus to become a punisher/reinforcer. The first step of clicker training- pairing a treat with the clicking noise- is classical conditioning because it causes the click noise itself to becoming reinforcing. An example of classical conditioning involving a punisher might be pairing a shock with a bell ring, causing the subject to flinch every time they hear a bell ring, even if no further shocks are applied. In the case of the Scat Mat, the electric shock was not paired with any other stimulus. Instead, a 3-step contigency was involved: antecedent: Dog sees/smells food in kitchen, behavior: Dog walks over Scat Mat, consequence: Dog gets shocked. This is positive punishment (as araminty noted), because the dog will now avoid the behavior of walking over the Scat Mat into the kitchen. The Scat Mat is a differential stimulus for punishment because the dog sees it and realizes that punishment will occur in the presence of the Scat Mat. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/15 "2012-09-28T16:32:20Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I only use positive reinforcement to train. I will use very mild negative reinforcement in cases of time-critical lifesaving, like if one of the dogs lunges at the cat as he zooms by on his night-time crazies, I’ll yell “NO!” But that’s about the size of it. Actually, in this case, yelling “NO” is not negative reinforcement - it’s positive punishment. Negative reinforcement refers to removing an aversive stimulus to increase a desired behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/16 "2012-09-28T19:42:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > …Reinforcement training can achieve amazing results. However the part about only using reinforcement and never punishment is better suited to animals other than dogs. There are some animals who could respond violently to a punishment or give up. Dogs are pack animals and dogs in the wild use punishment all the time. If you are trying to eliminate a behavior quickly, punishment is probably going to work better, however too much punishment can damage a relationship with a dog so it should be used sparingly. Please provide citations for this. I need to get that literature at the library. My wife is convinced the only humane training is via reinforcement and has stated repeatedly that, if/when we get a shepherd (in the distant future when the current canines are gone and we’re tired of traveling) she will “Not put up with you hitting a dog for any reason, ever.” I’ve noticed, however, that her small dogs either don’t respond to commands or respond slowly. And they constantly test their limits at sneaking out or stealing food. In contrast, I come from a background of training with both reinforcement and punishment; positive food and hugs and petting, as well as negative spanks, sharp noises (hand-clapping), and shouts (“No!” “Halt!” etc.). My family’s methods seemed more effective; the shepherds my family raised responded instantly to words and gestures and only had to learn once where the property ended and which foods to avoid. Has modern _dog psychology_ deemed them outmoded? Is breed/size a factor? –G? Like a dog without a bone An actor out alone Riders on the storm . --Morrison, Manzarek, Krieger and Densmore (The Doors) . _Riders on the Storm_ . L.A. Woman ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/17 "2012-09-28T19:45:25Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > Actually, in this case, yelling “NO” is not negative reinforcement - it’s positive punishment. Negative reinforcement refers to removing an aversive stimulus to increase a desired behavior. Errr…yeah. Although I think of it more as a “warning” than a punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/18 "2012-09-28T19:48:55Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Please provide citations for this. I need to get that literature at the library. > > My wife is convinced the only humane training is via reinforcement and has stated repeatedly that, if/when we get a shepherd (in the distant future when the current canines are gone and we’re tired of traveling) she will “Not put up with you hitting a dog for any reason, ever.” > > I’ve noticed, however, that her small dogs either don’t respond to commands or respond slowly. And they constantly test their limits at sneaking out or stealing food. > > In contrast, I come from a background of training with both reinforcement and punishment; positive food and hugs and petting, as well as negative spanks, sharp noises (hand-clapping), and shouts (“No!” “Halt!” etc.). My family’s methods seemed more effective; the shepherds my family raised responded instantly to words and gestures and only had to learn once where the property ended and which foods to avoid. Has modern _dog psychology_ deemed them outmoded? More or less. In particular, although the following isn’t directly about punishment, it bears on our attitudes toward it: [dominance theory about dogs has been significantly re-thought, and it controversial at best.](http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/) ---
**Author:** ![misskrystalx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@misskrystalx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misskrystalx)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/19 "2012-09-28T21:58:13Z")
I have tried it and it didn’t help a bit with my boxer’s jumping problem. But neither has anything else, so I am at my wits end. She just HAS to jump on people! ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053/20 "2012-09-28T23:29:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Errr…yeah. Although I think of it more as a “warning” than a punishment. I feel like you’re anxious about the term “punishment” - it has negative connotations, for sure, probably because of its use outside of animal training contexts… but since we’re all behavior experts here 🙂 we should be able to use the correct terminology. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressive-reinforcement-training-for-dogs/636053.md?page=2)