# Progressives have NOT taken over the Democratic Party **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 13, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884 "2019-05-13T03:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/21 "2019-05-13T23:30:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > She knows how to leverage social media to forward her brand. …one person’s “brand” is another person’s “progressive agenda.” Its all about the narrative and its clear what narrative you are pushing. > [@](#): > > On policy, her accomplishments are zilch and that’s not likely to change. Keep shifting those goalposts. What are the typical policy accomplishments of other newcomers to the House who have been in office for less than six months? What is your basis for comparison? > [@](#): > > As for Medicare For All, Americans love it on two conditions: 1) they get to keep their current insurance, and 2) they don’t have to pay for it. Polling on its actual cost and impact on current health insurance arrangements drops support to much lower levels: > > [Poll: Support for 'Medicare-for-all' fluctuates with details | AP News](https://apnews.com/4516833e7fb644c9aa8bcc11048b2169) > > Almost all of the support for health care reform involves some additions to ACA, not scrapping it in favor of something else entirely. Along with scrapping Medicare as well. You all may call it Medicare, but M4A is MEDICAID, not Medicare. Excuse me for not keeping up with the vagaries of the stupid nature of the appalling US Healthcare system. But you don’t seem to be disagreeing with anything I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/22 "2019-05-13T23:36:27Z")
51% of democrats identify as liberal. > **[Most Democrats Now Identify As ‘Liberal’](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/most-democrats-now-identify-as-liberal/)** > > Welcome to Pollapalooza, our weekly polling roundup. This week’s poll(s) In 2018, for the first time, a majority of Democrats said they considered themselves to… Granted they’ll never take over the party because they don’t have the financial backing of the moderates in the party. But liberals are the majority of democrats now. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/23 "2019-05-13T23:42:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, I’ve just noted that progressives are a minority within the Democratic Party and do not get to call the shots. Nor are they being allowed to. You haven’t heard of Moulton and Murphy because they write legislation rather than appear on the cover of Rolling Stone. Why is Seth Moulton a moderate? He supports marijuana legalization, abortion, gun control, gay rights, the green new deal. He doesn’t support medicare for all, but he does support universal health care and a public option. He may not call himself liberal but he is pretty liberal on the issues. ---
**Author:** ![MortSahlFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@MortSahlFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MortSahlFan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/24 "2019-05-13T23:45:22Z")
The DP has moved to the right… Support for wars, wall street, conservative trade deals like NAFTA, gutting social welfare, doing NOTHING for the working-class. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/25 "2019-05-13T23:46:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …which progressives have “have deluded themselves about how much support they have among among Democratic voters?” Can you give some examples of this delusion? Wait for it… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This poll suggests 70% of people are in favour of [“Medicare for all”.](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412545-70-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all-health-care) Boom! There’s your example. This is just the kind of self-delusion I’m talking about, cherrypicking polls with vague wording to convince progressives that the vast majority of the public is actually on their side. (As a corollary, this spins out into conspiracy theories for why this broad majority doesn’t translate into Congress and the presidency.) From the same publication as your cite: [https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/428958-poll-voters-want-the-government-to-provide-healthcare-for](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/428958-poll-voters-want-the-government-to-provide-healthcare-for) > [@](#): > > A new poll finds that about only one in 10 registered voters want the equivalent of Medicare for all if it means abolishing private health insurance plans. Which is why I have so much respect for Nancy Pelosi: > **[Trust Pelosi. She’s Right About 2020 and Impeachment.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/trust-pelosi.html)** > > The speaker is outwitting Republicans, even if she isn’t taking on the left’s big ideas. > [@](#): > > Many progressives think the best way to attract and mobilize voters is to push big ideas like “Medicare for All” and the Green New Deal. Pelosi disagrees. Big ideas often alarm the other side’s voters more than they inspire yours. Instead, she focuses on specific policies that affect people’s lives. She knows such policies are easier to explain and harder to caricature. And she emphasizes tangible benefits. “The climate issue is a jobs issue,” she says. > > The smarter play, in Pelosi’s view, is to defend policies that are well understood and supported. Let your enemy be the aggressor, and rally your base against his attack. Instead of pushing Medicare for All, the speaker targets President Donald Trump’s assault on the Affordable Care Act. She specifies elements of the ACA that score well in polls: “protections against pre-existing conditions, bans on lifetime limits and annual limits, the Medicare-Medicaid expansion, savings for seniors on their prescription drugs, [and] premium assistance that makes health coverage affordable.”[…] > > Some critics see Pelosi’s centrist language as weak and uninspiring. But she cares about policies, not ideologies, so she’s ruthless about embracing or shedding labels. She believes, for instance, that fairness is a more popular and less incendiary term than socialism. At a press conference last month, a reporter asked her about Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s pledge to make 2020 a referendum on socialism. Pelosi replied that McConnell had engineered tax cuts for the rich, and she asked what he was doing to help ordinary people. At Cornell, Pelosi accused Republicans of using the word socialism to hide their attacks on popular programs. “They’re saying that Medicare and Medicaid and raising the minimum wage are acts of socialism,” the speaker scoffed. “No, they’re not. They’re about fairness.” > > A party can win more votes, in Pelosi’s view, by claiming to represent the middle than by claiming to represent a wing or a movement. “The Republicans have abandoned the center. The left can own it,” she argued on Tuesday. “Redefine what the center is, and don’t let them define our agenda as something that is far left.” > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > AOC has more interactions on twitter than anyone else in the Democratic party. More than Obama. More than CNN. Time for another reality check. Again: being popular on social media is not the same as being popular among the broad populace. > **[Poll Results | Quinnipiac University Poll](https://poll.qu.edu/poll-results/)** > > Quinnipiac University Poll’s list of recent and past poll results for political races, state and national elections, and issues of public concern. > [@](#): > > U.S. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York gets a negative 23 - 36 percent favorability rating, with 38 percent who haven’t heard enough about her to form an opinion. Rep. Ocasio-Cortez has been good for the Democratic Party, 33 percent of voters say, as 36 percent say she’s been bad for the party. > > “All is definitely not A-OK for AOC. Most voters either don’t like the firebrand freshman Congresswoman or don’t know who she is,” Malloy said. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/26 "2019-05-14T00:02:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > 51% of democrats identify as liberal. > > [Most Democrats Now Identify As ‘Liberal’ | FiveThirtyEight](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/most-democrats-now-identify-as-liberal/) > > Granted they’ll never take over the party because they don’t have the financial backing of the moderates in the party. But liberals are the majority of democrats now. There it is, the conspiratorial thinking I referred to just upthread. Couldn’t possibly be that the party’s makeup actually represents the wishes of its grassroots members. So how do you explain the following? > **[Gallup poll: Majority of Democrats want more moderate party - MinnPost](https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2019/01/gallup-poll-majority-of-democrats-want-more-moderate-party/)** > > Republicans, meanwhile, preferred a more conservative party. > [@](#): > > Gallup recently asked Democrats and Dem-leaning independents this question: > > “If you had to choose, would rather see the Democratic Party become more liberal or become more moderate?” > > And they asked Republicans and Repub-leaning independents: > > “If you had to choose, would rather see the Republican Party become more conservative or become more moderate?”[…] > > Gallup found that by a fairly solid-looking 54-41 percent (with five percent expressing no opinion) of Democrats would prefer that their party move toward the middle. > > But among Republicans and Repub-leaners, by an even wider 57-37 percent margin, want their party to move further to the right. Why do you go by “Wesley Clark”, anyway? 😕 He was like the iconic avatar for the hopes and dreams of moderate/pragmatic Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/27 "2019-05-14T00:20:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Wait for it… > > Boom! There’s your example. This is just the kind of self-delusion I’m talking about, cherrypicking polls with vague wording to convince progressives that the vast majority of the public is actually on their side. …Boom! You are wrong. I used the word “suggests” for a reason. I used the word “suggests” because I concede that I’ve cherrypicked that particular poll. Exactly the same way Jonathan Chait cherrypicked the polls that he used to frame the editorial that he wrote. I picked that example as a direct counter to the narrative that you and Chait are pushing: that “cherrypicking polls with vague wording” is evidence that “progressives have NOT taken over the Democratic Party.” This isn’t “self-delusion.” My argument was about the difference between “labels” and “positions.” When you remove that sentence from the context it was made you are deliberately mischaracterizing my argument. Stop doing that. > [@](#): > > (As a corollary, this spins out into conspiracy theories for why this broad majority doesn’t translate into Congress and the presidency.) Not it doesn’t. The “popular vote” doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > From the same publication as your cite: > > [https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/428958-poll-voters-want-the-government-to-provide-healthcare-for](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/428958-poll-voters-want-the-government-to-provide-healthcare-for) I’m well aware of what the article says. > [@](#): > > Which is why I have so much respect for Nancy Pelosi: > > [Trust Pelosi. She’s right about 2020 and impeachment.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/trust-pelosi.html) If Nancy Pelosi leads the Democrats to defeat in 2020 will you still have respect for what she says? > [@](#): > > Time for another reality check. Again: being popular on social media is not the same as being popular among the broad populace. > [Poll Results | Quinnipiac University Poll](https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2611) What a strange poll. 23 questions. Two of those questions about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. No other person gets their own question. From that poll: what is your standard for comparison? Is she more or less favourable than Joe Biden, or Hickenlooper? The mere fact she gets her own questions says a lot about her visibility. But regardless: time for another reality check. The President is arguably massively less [favorable](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/trump_favorableunfavorable-5493.html)than AOC will ever be. But there is a very good chance he will be re-elected in 2020. I know you think you know how this all works. But in reality everything is in flux. The rules of the game are constantly changing. The people behind Donald Trump are at the absolute “top of the game” at both understanding and being able to micro-target the people that matter in the elections. Nobody on the Dems side is remotely close to the “popularity” of the President on social media. You might dismiss it: but it is really fucking important. Ignore it and you ignore everything that happened in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/28 "2019-05-14T00:29:38Z")
Says the guy who lives on the other side of the planet and is only too happy to throw that fact around when it suits him (“Excuse me for not keeping up with the vagaries of the stupid nature of the appalling US Healthcare system”). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/29 "2019-05-14T00:32:39Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Says the guy who lives on the other side of the planet and is only too happy to throw that fact around when it suits him …WORST. REBUTTAL. EVER. > [@](#): > > (“Excuse me for not keeping up with the vagaries of the stupid nature of the appalling US Healthcare system”). Thanks for your understanding. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/30 "2019-05-14T00:34:34Z")
So we _should_ take seriously your opinion about which American politicians support MFA vs. some other form of universal health care, even after your assertion of ignorance about our system’s “vagaries”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/31 "2019-05-14T00:42:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So we _should_ take seriously your opinion about which American politicians support MFA vs. some other form of universal health care, even after your assertion of ignorance about our system’s “vagaries”? :dubious: …you can do whatever the fuck you like. You’ve made it crystal clear you are never going to take anything I say seriously anyway. You can choose to address my post or you can ignore it because I typed something while I was lying down in bed typing on my laptop and my brain wasn’t properly engaged. You are using MFA as a shield. You are welcome to do so. It won’t hide the fact that you misrepresented my arguments and it doesn’t hide the fact that the OP is built on cherry-picked statistics. It doesn’t hide the fact that what this thread is really all about is what some random person may or may not have said to you on twitter. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/32 "2019-05-14T00:52:17Z")
Whistle past the graveyard all you like. But Josh Marshall, the _grise eminence_ of the left-blogosphere, sees it too: [https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/it-wasnt-a-bounce-bidens-support-is-growing](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/it-wasnt-a-bounce-bidens-support-is-growing) > [@](#): > > The more activist conversation that dominates Twitter seems to be operating in a different world from the actual Democratic electorate. FWIW, I take you seriously when you say things that deserve to be taken seriously. (And you do frequently say such things, despite your hyperbolic claim that I don’t ever take you seriously.) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/33 "2019-05-14T01:06:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Whistle past the graveyard all you like. But Josh Marshall, the _grise eminence_ of the left-blogosphere, sees it too: > > [It Wasn’t a Bounce. Biden’s Support is Growing - TPM – Talking Points Memo](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/it-wasnt-a-bounce-bidens-support-is-growing) …who the fuck is Josh Marshall, and who appointed him _grise eminence_ of the left-blogosphere? > [@](#): > > FWIW, I take you seriously when you say things that deserve to be taken seriously. (And you do frequently say such things, despite your hyperbolic claim that I don’t ever take you seriously.) You dismissed the entirety of my post based on something I said to somebody else because I used a word that didn’t materially change the substance of my argument. One could argue based on that not that we shouldn’t take me seriously, but we shouldn’t take \*\*you \*\*seriously. But I do take you seriously. Deadly seriously. Because the world has changed. And everything is about the narrative. And framing is important. And what Chait did was take a set of facts and he spun those facts to create a narrative, and what you’ve done is take his narrative and you’ve run with it. I don’t think your narrative fits the facts. I’ve challenged you to provide proof of your narrative and the best that you can do is to spin the words that I’ve said. Narratives matter. And if narratives don’t fit the facts then it becomes important to challenge them. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/34 "2019-05-14T01:23:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > There it is, the conspiratorial thinking I referred to just upthread. Couldn’t possibly be that the party’s makeup actually represents the wishes of its grassroots members. > > So how do you explain the following? > > [https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2019/01/gallup-poll-majority-of-democrats-want-more-moderate-party/](https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2019/01/gallup-poll-majority-of-democrats-want-more-moderate-party/) > > Why do you go by “Wesley Clark”, anyway? 😕 He was like the iconic avatar for the hopes and dreams of moderate/pragmatic Dems. Conspiratorial? Posting an article you disagree with is conspiratorial? The % of democrats who identify as liberal keeps growing. In the 2016 primary, there was a huge difference in how democrats over 40 vs under 40 voted in the primary. > **[Democrats and their voters have shifted left as 2020 nears. They’re betting...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-and-their-voters-have-lurched-left-as-2020-nears-theyre-betting-the-rest-of-the-country-follows/2019/01/22/ba2e9800-1b55-11e9-9ebf-c5fed1b7a081_story.html?utm_term=.947ffa9145a7)** > > For years, Democratic presidential candidates have been skittish about taking liberal positions. The caution has given way to confidence. > [@](#): > > A Pew Research poll in early 2018 found that 46 percent of Democrats identified themselves as liberal, up from 28 percent a decade earlier. The percentages calling themselves moderate or conservative each slumped by high single digits. Give it time. I predict the democratic party will keep moving to the left due to domestic problems (brutal and unaffordable health care, income inequality, lack of job security, open war on women and minorities, etc) combined with demographic changes. For a lot of younger people ‘conservative’ means white nationalism, neofascism and plutocracy. > **[Gallup Poll: Democrats Are Moving Left - DataTrek Research](https://datatrekresearch.com/gallup-poll-democrats-are-moving-left/?v=7516fd43adaa)** > > Last year, the majority of US Democrats self-identified as “liberal” for the first time. That’s just one important highlight from Gallup’s latest survey on Americans’ assessment of their political ideology. With a newly divided Congress and a highly... ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/35 "2019-05-14T01:44:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No, I’ve just noted that progressives are a minority within the Democratic Party and do not get to call the shots. Nor are they being allowed to. You haven’t heard of Moulton and Murphy because they write legislation rather than appear on the cover of Rolling Stone. And, in that argument, you are missing something very important. The people get their agenda out to the people and get the most support are eventually the ones who will have power. If you’re someone we’ve never heard of, with positions that don’t align with the public face of your party, then that is not good. The idea that progressives need to be a majority in the party is silly. They only need to convince the rest of the party that their ideals are aligned with theirs. And, if you look at what counts as “liberal” these days, it is clear that the moderate portion of the Democratic Party is becoming more progressive. Democrats actually fought and achieved marriage equality. That was part of the progressive agenda. Democrats regularly fight for anti-discrimination laws against LGBT people. That’s progressive. All of the current Democratic candidates for President are discussing progressive ideas. You make the mistake of assuming that people’s stances are fixed. You assume there are “progressives” and “moderates,” and that one cannot influence the other. But they very much can. What you have to compare are ideas, not people in determining who has “control” of the party. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/36 "2019-05-14T01:56:29Z")
That said, the OP is correct in his title. The progressives have not taken over. That creates an image of some sort of coup. It misses the leftist ideal of being able to convince people rather than having to conquer them. What has happened is that more progressive causes have become mainstream–including those that actually deal with the economic hardships people face. The Democratic Party realizes they dropped the ball on those issues last time. The main thing is making sure the message does not forget about the working class. And I say just “the working class,” because there is no reason they should be separated by race. Despite Trump’s bluster, only the Dems have actually done anything to help the working (hu)man. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/37 "2019-05-14T01:57:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, in that argument, you are missing something very important. The people get their agenda out to the people and get the most support are eventually the ones who will have power. If you’re someone we’ve never heard of, with positions that don’t align with the public face of your party, then that is not good. > > The idea that progressives need to be a majority in the party is silly. They only need to convince the rest of the party that their ideals are aligned with theirs. And, if you look at what counts as “liberal” these days, it is clear that the moderate portion of the Democratic Party is becoming more progressive. > > Democrats actually fought and achieved marriage equality. That was part of the progressive agenda. Democrats regularly fight for anti-discrimination laws against LGBT people. That’s progressive. All of the current Democratic candidates for President are discussing progressive ideas. > > You make the mistake of assuming that people’s stances are fixed. You assume there are “progressives” and “moderates,” and that one cannot influence the other. But they very much can. > > What you have to compare are ideas, not people in determining who has “control” of the party. Which begs the question again, what is a moderate democrat and what is a liberal democrat? As **Adaher** mentioned earlier, he feels Seth Moulton is a moderate. But Moulton supports marijuana legalization, abortion, gun control, gay rights, the green new deal, universal health care, a public option. He even supports abolishing the electoral college and the filibuster. These are all liberal positions Politicians have demonized the term liberal for decades, so yeah people will recoil from it. But what are the differences between moderate democrats and liberal democrats on the issues? People may recoil from the term leftist or liberal due to the red scare or Gingrich’s propaganda campaign. But ask them how they feel about renewable energy investment, marijuana legalization, gay rights, universal health care, etc. and a big chunk of democratic voters are liberal on the issues. Reading this thread I’m getting the impression that ‘newt gingrich and Rush limbaugh called liberals names, so democrats are afraid to be called liberal’. How does that in any way apply to how people feel on the actual issues? Just because a lot of democrats are afraid of being called names by republicans doesn’t mean they reject liberal positions on issues like taxation, health care, social issues, etc. I’m open to the idea that I’m wrong if anyone wants to prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/38 "2019-05-14T02:05:47Z")
Like on health care I guess you could make the argument that liberal democrats support medicare for all or VA for all while moderate democrats support expanding the ACA. Maybe moderate democrats support higher taxes on the rich, but not as high as the liberal democrats want. In the past, moderate democrats supported civil unions while liberal democrats supported gay marriage. At this point gay marriage is the mainstream democratic view though. I suppose on ICE the liberal position is abolition while the moderate position is reform. Liberals probably support more gun control than moderates. Maybe liberals want a minimum wage of $15, while moderate democrats want a minimum wage of $10 or one that is indexed to COL by area. I don’t know. I think the big difference is that liberal democrats are much more hostile to corporate interests than moderate democrats, who try to balance the interests of corporations with the public. Either way. > **[Most Americans Are Liberal, Even If They Don’t Know It](https://prospect.org/power/americans-liberal-even-know/)** > > Don’t believe it? Check out these polls.  ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/39 "2019-05-14T02:40:42Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Conspiratorial? Posting an article you disagree with is conspiratorial? :rolleyes: No, “Granted they’ll never take over the party because they don’t have the financial backing of the moderates in the party” is conspiratorial. Moneyed elites, thwarting the will of the true majority of the party. :dubious: Now, what about that screen name? I’m genuinely curious, as someone who was an early backer of the “Draft Clark” campaign. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …who the fuck is Josh Marshall, and who appointed him _grise eminence_ of the left-blogosphere? You make these aggressively dismissive comments celebrating your own ignorance, and then blame me when I hoist you by your own petard. Here’s another opportunity to rinse/repeat, as I quote the intro to Josh Marshall’s WIki entry (which I did not, FTR, edit): > [@](#): > > Joshua Micah Jesajan-Dorja Marshall (born February 15, 1969) is an American journalist and blogger[1] who founded Talking Points Memo,[2] which in 2004 The New York Times Magazine called “one of the most popular and most respected sites” in the blogosphere.[3] A liberal, he currently presides over a network of progressive-oriented sites that operate under the TPM Media banner and average 400,000-page views every weekday[4] and 750,000 unique visitors every month.[5][6] > > Marshall and his work have been profiled by The New York Times,[5] the Los Angeles Times,[7] the Financial Times,[8] National Public Radio,[9] The New York Times Magazine,[10] the Columbia Journalism Review,[4] Bill Moyers Journal,[11] and GQ.[12][13] Hendrik Hertzberg, a senior editor at The New Yorker, compares Marshall to the influential founders of Time magazine. “Marshall is in the line of the great light-bulb-over-the-head editors. He’s like Briton Hadden or Henry Luce. He’s created something new.”[4] Now I guess you can say “Who the fuck is Bill Moyers? Who the fuck is Hendrik Hertzberg? Who the fuck is Henry Luce?” …aaaand then I give up. :smack: > [@BigT](#): > > Democrats actually fought and achieved marriage equality. That was part of the progressive agenda. Democrats regularly fight for anti-discrimination laws against LGBT people. That’s progressive. All of the current Democratic candidates for President are discussing progressive ideas. When I talk about the progressive wing of the party, I’m talking about economic progressives. And that’s what the self-styled progressives I know mean by the term as well. In fact, they show open disdain for “lifestyle liberals” who are more concerned with what Ralph Nader called “gonadal politics”. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884/40 "2019-05-14T03:16:28Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > : > You make these aggressively dismissive comments celebrating your own ignorance, and then blame me when I hoist you by your own petard. Here’s another opportunity to rinse/repeat, as I quote the intro to Josh Marshall’s WIki entry (which I did not, FTR, edit) …LOL. I can google him just fine. Time Magazine said in 2004 that TPM was “one of the most popular and most respected sites”? That was 15 years ago. Thats 15,000 years in Trump time. The blogosphere is a very different thing now than it was then. How is it do you think you’ve “hoisted me up by my own petard?” I’ve heard of Talking Points Memo. I don’t tend to visit it often. The Time quote talks about TPM: it doesn’t talk about Josh Marshall. Time Magazine didn’t appoint him grise eminence of the left-blogosphere. Apparently you did. Thanks for clearing that up. Why the fuck do you think it ignorant not to have heard of just another voice on the internet? And why the fuck should I care what he thinks? We are in Great Debates and you’ve expressed an opinion and I’m talking to you. I’m not talking to Josh. Josh is just as concerned as you are about framing and setting the narrative about Joe Biden “correctly.” He wrote a pretty pedestrian analysis of Biden’s polling numbers that hit all the right talking points. Why should I care? > [@](#): > > Now I guess you can say “Who the fuck is Bill Moyers? Who the fuck is Hendrik Hertzberg? Who the fuck is Henry Luce?” …aaaand then I give up. :smack: Do you know what Jonathan Chait, Josh Marshall, Bill Moyers, Hendrik Hertberg and Henry Luce have in common? (Besides the fact that I don’t know who the fuck any of them are) And you are still avoiding addressing everything I said in the previous post. That’s how you operate. Set the narrative, pivot when challenged. You’ve acknowledged in the past that this is a tactic that you use in debate. You can’t show that the alleged plan of the progressives to take over the party was simply repeating that they had already done so. Because it wasn’t. Everything else you are doing in this thread is a distraction from the fact that your OP has exactly zero substance. The debate is over. You’ve bought nothing to the table. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-have-not-taken-over-the-democratic-party/833884.md?page=3)