# Progressives Unhappy With Politifact's Biggest Lie of 2011 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984 "2011-12-21T19:58:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/1 "2011-12-21T19:58:47Z")
Paul Krugman’s [conscience](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/politifact-r-i-p/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto) is shocked by the fact that Politifact, known for their ratings of various statements by politicians from True to Half True to False to Pants-on-Fire, has selected as their [“Lie of the Year,”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/dec/20/lie-year-democrats-claims-republicans-voted-end-me/) the Democrat’s claim that seniors would have to pay $12,500 more for health care “because Republicans voted to end Medicare.” > [@Politifact](#): > > Just four days after the party-line vote, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee released a Web ad that said seniors will have to pay $12,500 more for health care “because Republicans voted to end Medicare.” > > Rep. Steve Israel of New York, head of the DCCC, appeared on cable news shows and declared that Republicans voted to “terminate Medicare.” A Web video from the Agenda Project, a liberal group, said the plan would leave the country “without Medicare” and showed a Ryan look-alike pushing an old woman in a wheelchair off a cliff. And just last month, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi sent a fundraising appeal that said: “House Republicans’ vote to end Medicare is a shameful act of betrayal.” Krugman focuses his rebuttal on the simple claim of “ending” Medicare, contending it’s a fair claim to make because the privatization plan would have drastically changed the program. But Politifact addresses that, noting that its concern was with the overreaching nature of the claims: > [@Politifact](#): > > [ul][li]They ignored the fact that the Ryan plan would not affect people currently in Medicare – or even the people 55 to 65 who would join the program in the next 10 years.[/li] > [li]They used harsh terms such as “end” and “kill” when the program would still exist, although in a privatized system.[/li] > [li]They used pictures and video of elderly people who clearly were too old to be affected by the Ryan plan. The DCCC video that aired four days after the vote featured an elderly man who had to take a job as a stripper to pay his medical bills.[/li][/ul] My own opinion is that Krugman privately thought of Politifact as an ally, and is upset to see his ally attacking friendly forces. But that’s pure speculation on my part. What’s undenaible is that Krugman, along with Talking Points Memo, Daily Kos, and The New Republic clearly believe Politifact’s analysis should never have been published. Whether they think this because they believe it to be flawed, or simply strategically unfriendly, is for another day. For now: Is Politifact correct to call the left’s collection of claims about Ryan’s plan a lie? A big lie? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/2 "2011-12-21T20:06:24Z")
Sure it’s a lie. No way a senior citizen could raise enough money for medical bills by stripping! ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/3 "2011-12-21T20:17:14Z")
Just because Medicare wouldn’t end immediately doesn’t mean that the Ryan plan wouldn’t mean the end of Medicare. And, just because the new privatized system, that’s designed not to keep up with the cost of medical care, is still called Medicare doesn’t mean it’s the same system. If Obama proposed changing the Department of Defense so that in 15 years, all personnel would be replaced by school children, and all weapons they ordered had to be made of cardboard, would this be the end of the DoD? It’s not happening immediately, and it’s still called the DoD, right? If Romney said that Obama’s plan would end the DoD, I wouldn’t call that a lie. So, I think that the statements that Ryan’s plan would end Medicare are not lies. It would end Medicare as we all define it – a government-paid plan that covers basic medical care for seniors. Ryan’s plan is not designed to cover basic medical care, so it’s not really Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/4 "2011-12-21T20:30:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Paul Krugman’s [conscience](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/politifact-r-i-p/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto) is shocked by the fact that Politifact, known for their ratings of various statements by politicians from True to Half True to False to Pants-on-Fire, has selected as their [“Lie of the Year,”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/dec/20/lie-year-democrats-claims-republicans-voted-end-me/) the Democrat’s claim that seniors would have to pay $12,500 more for health care “because Republicans voted to end Medicare.” 😕 When Krugman says: > [@](#): > > Steve Benen in the link above explains it, but let me just repeat the basics. Republicans voted to replace Medicare with a voucher system to buy private insurance — and not just that, a voucher system in which the value of the vouchers would systematically lag the cost of health care, so that there was no guarantee that seniors would even be able to afford private insurance. > > The new scheme would still be called “Medicare”, but it would bear little resemblance to the current system, which guarantees essential care to all seniors. He seems to be talking about something **entirely different** than what PolitiFact is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/5 "2011-12-21T20:31:02Z")
You can call a cat a dog, but its still a cat. Calling Ryan’s voucher program Medicare doesn’t make it Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/6 "2011-12-21T20:32:09Z")
If this is the biggest lie of 2011, it must have been a very honest year. ---
**Author:** ![Phatlewt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a698b9/32.png) [@Phatlewt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phatlewt)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/7 "2011-12-21T20:47:20Z")
From a nitpicky angle, I can see how the statement isn’t entirely true. They didn’t vote to cancel the program. Of course they did vote to change the program fundamentally, and Democrats consider changing medicare so that it no longer guarantees coverage for all seniors to be functionally equivalent to ending Medicare. “because Republicans voted to end Medicare **as we know it** ” would have been more accurate. However, at the most critical, I think that the original statement could be described as an exaggeration. I don’t see how it possibly stacks up to “lie of the year.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/8 "2011-12-21T20:48:15Z")
It seems that most of the comments above do the same thing Krugman did: that is, they focus on the phrase “ending Medicare” and defend its accuracy. This puzzles me, since both I, and the linked Politifact article, make clear that the “lie” was not the claim that the scheme would end Medicare, but for whom, and when, the scheme would end Medicare. I accept, for the purposes of this argument, the claim that the system would change Medicare so drastically it’s fair to say that it would have ended, but those changes would not have applied to any one currently in Medicare, nor anyone 55 to 65 who would have joined the program in the next 10 years. So the “ending” would have applied only to those persons younger than 55. Yet the thrust of the attacks insinuated that this was a plan aimed at current Medicare recipients. THAT is the “lie” in question. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/9 "2011-12-21T20:50:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If this is the biggest lie of 2011, it must have been a very honest year. Doesn’t seem very honest to me. Here’s a recent quote from Romney: [QUOTE=Mitt Romney] Just a couple of weeks ago in Kansas, President Obama lectured us about Teddy Roosevelt’s philosophy of government. But he failed to mention the important difference between Teddy Roosevelt and Barack Obama. Roosevelt believed that government should level the playing field to create equal opportunities. President Obama believes that government should create equal outcomes. In an entitlement society, everyone receives the same or similar rewards, regardless of education, effort, and willingness to take risk. That which is earned by some is redistributed to the others. And the only people who truly enjoy any real rewards are those who do the redistributing—the government. The truth is that everyone may get the same rewards, but virtually everyone will be worse off. [/QUOTE] From here: [http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2011/12/you-sir-are-no-teddy-roosevelt-108223.html](http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2011/12/you-sir-are-no-teddy-roosevelt-108223.html) Romney is basically calling Obama a straight up communist (or Marxist, or socialist – I’m not sure what the distinctions are). Seems lie-y to me. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/10 "2011-12-21T20:55:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems that most of the comments above do the same thing Krugman did: that is, they focus on the phrase “ending Medicare” and defend its accuracy. > > This puzzles me, since both I, and the linked Politifact article, make clear that the “lie” was not the claim that the scheme would end Medicare, but for whom, and when, the scheme would end Medicare. I accept, for the purposes of this argument, the claim that the system would change Medicare so drastically it’s fair to say that it would have ended, but those changes would not have applied to any one currently in Medicare, nor anyone 55 to 65 who would have joined the program in the next 10 years. > > So the “ending” would have applied only to those persons younger than 55. Yet the thrust of the attacks insinuated that this was a plan aimed at current Medicare recipients. > > THAT is the “lie” in question. Is it that Politfact has no concept of the passage of time? I understood that commercial to mean that, when those changes go through, seniors then will have to, uh, find other ways to pay for medical care. And, my response (first post!) did focus on the timing. If Obama put forth a plan to end the armed services in 15 years, it would be fair to say that Obama is proposing to end the armed services, right? Is extrapolating into the future specifically laid out by Ryan’s plan that difficult for Politfact? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/11 "2011-12-21T20:58:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Doesn’t seem very honest to me. Here’s a recent quote from Romney: > > From here: [http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2011/12/you-sir-are-no-teddy-roosevelt-108223.html](http://www.politico.com/blogs/burns-haberman/2011/12/you-sir-are-no-teddy-roosevelt-108223.html) > > Romney is basically calling Obama a straight up communist (or Marxist, or socialist – I’m not sure what the distinctions are). Seems lie-y to me. It’s not a model of probity, but it’s also vauge enough to avoid an outright classification of “lie.” Romney claims that Obama believes that government should create equal outcomes. What Obama believes is a matter of speculation. I think he’s right – Obama probably does believe that government should create equal outcomes. When government creates equal opportunities and disparate results occur, that’s generally seen by the left as evidence that more government influence is needed. But I could be wrong. In any event, a vague claim about what Obama believes is not in the same category as specific claims about Medciare that are false. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/12 "2011-12-21T20:58:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems that most of the comments above do the same thing Krugman did: that is, they focus on the phrase “ending Medicare” and defend its accuracy. Look at the composition of this board (at least the ones that post in GD/Politics); it shouldn’t be all that surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/13 "2011-12-21T20:59:47Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Is it that Politfact has no concept of the passage of time? I understood that commercial to mean that, when those changes go through, seniors then will have to, uh, find other ways to pay for medical care. And, my response (first post!) did focus on the timing. If Obama put forth a plan to end the armed services in 15 years, it would be fair to say that Obama is proposing to end the armed services, right? > > Is extrapolating into the future specifically laid out by Ryan’s plan that difficult for Politfact? No, but if you put forth a plan to end the armed services in fifteen years, and I ran an ad against that plan showing current soldiers standing helplessly outside their locked barracks, you would have cause to question my ad’s accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/14 "2011-12-21T21:00:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Look at the composition of this board (at least the ones that post in GD/Politics); it shouldn’t be all that surprising. Yes, very true. However, my belief is that by constant repetition of the actual subject, I’ll force either an embarassed silence or actual discussion of the claim. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/15 "2011-12-21T21:08:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a model of probity, but it’s also vauge enough to avoid an outright classification of “lie.” Romney claims that Obama believes that government should create equal outcomes. > > What Obama believes is a matter of speculation. I think he’s right – Obama probably does believe that government should create equal outcomes. When government creates equal opportunities and disparate results occur, that’s generally seen by the left as evidence that more government influence is needed. > > But I could be wrong. In any event, a vague claim about what Obama believes is not in the same category as specific claims about Medciare that are false. Do you really think that Obama believes in equality of outcomes? That’s what Romney said – Obama believes in equality of outcomes. I think there’s a zero chance that Obama believes working towards a perfectly flat society. > [@Bricker](#): > > No, but if you put forth a plan to end the armed services in fifteen years, and I ran an ad against that plan showing current soldiers standing helplessly outside their locked barracks, you would have cause to question my ad’s accuracy. Questioning your ad’s accuracy is not equal to “Lie of the year.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/16 "2011-12-21T21:09:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, very true. However, my belief is that by constant repetition of the actual subject, I’ll force either an embarassed silence or actual discussion of the claim. That’s pretty unfair. In the very first reply of this thread, I mentioned the timing. If you’re looking for silence, though, I can accommodate. I thought you were looking for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/17 "2011-12-21T21:13:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems that most of the comments above do the same thing Krugman did: that is, they focus on the phrase “ending Medicare” and defend its accuracy. > > This puzzles me, since both I, and the linked Politifact article, make clear that the “lie” was not the claim that the scheme would end Medicare, but for whom, and when, the scheme would end Medicare. I accept, for the purposes of this argument, the claim that the system would change Medicare so drastically it’s fair to say that it would have ended, but those changes would not have applied to any one currently in Medicare, nor anyone 55 to 65 who would have joined the program in the next 10 years. > > So the “ending” would have applied only to those persons younger than 55. Yet the thrust of the attacks insinuated that this was a plan aimed at current Medicare recipients. > > THAT is the “lie” in question. Slice one hair finely, nobody notices. Slice two hairs finely, it is spin. Three hairs, a white lie. I’m just not sure how many split hairs that Politifact had to bunch together to call this the whopper of the year. Look, everyone with half a brain and a whiff of political instinct knows what’s going on here. Politifact has been in conservative crosshairs this year because most of the lies that they’ve been pointing out have been from [Republicans](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/rulings/pants-fire/). This, say the critics, is not evidence of half of the leading GOP candidates proving themselves of being completely unsuitable for elected office (does anyone really think that Herman Cain, Michelle Bachmann, and Rick Santorum (among others) have a good grasp of cold hard facts?). No, say the critics, it’s lib’rul bias!! Maybe there are some outrageous lies told by liberals that are not getting enough coverage in the press, and Politifact could do a better job of exposing these hypothetical lies that I don’t know of. But calling this Medicare thing, which Politifact and others clearly state is a disagreement of how the point is phrased, as the biggest lie of 2011 is clearly an effort to appease critics from the right. Nothing more, nothing less. When we call out people for **big lies** , is it typical to offer a few ways to tweak the statement to make it true? I don’t think so. For example, when Alan Grayson charged the GOP with having a health care plan consisting only of “die quickly,” there’s no way to tweak that statement to make it true. When Michelle Bachmann says… well, anything, there’s no way to make her statements more accurate with a couple different word choices. **Big lies** are **big lies** because they are statements beyond repair. So if the OP is acknowledging the accuracy of Politifact’s suggestions on how to rephrase the “Republicans voted to end Medicare” more truthful, then I think the OP would be implicitly acknowledging that the statement isn’t a **big lie** at all, just a poorly phrased one. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/18 "2011-12-21T21:14:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, but if you put forth a plan to end the armed services in fifteen years, and I ran an ad against that plan showing current soldiers standing helplessly outside their locked barracks, you would have cause to question my ad’s accuracy. The _ad_ is misleading, as are most political ads to some degree or another. Does it constitute the “Lie of the Year,” in a year so rich with fragrant bullshit? That’s debatable, to say the least. As others have said, it looks a lot like a gambit on the part of Politifact to apply a sheen of fairitude and balancity to things. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/19 "2011-12-21T21:26:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My own opinion is that Krugman privately thought of Politifact as an ally, and is upset to see his ally attacking friendly forces. But that’s pure speculation on my part. What’s undenaible is that Krugman, along with Talking Points Memo, Daily Kos, and The New Republic clearly believe Politifact’s analysis should never have been published. Whether they think this because they believe it to be flawed, or simply strategically unfriendly, is for another day. For now: Is Politifact correct to call the left’s collection of claims about Ryan’s plan a lie? A big lie? I think Krugman and other liberal bloggers saw Politifact as an ally in the sense that they were also willing to speak the truth about what’s going on in America rather than kowtow to the incredible political power of the right wing as nearly everyone else does. They are upset because they no longer believe that to be the case. And in fairness to them, it looks like they are correct. It’s hard to argue that this isn’t a political decision. Politifact was facing some heat for pointing out GOP lies and had they continued using their former method of picking the single biggest lie then a Republican talking point would have “won” for the third year in a row. Instead they bypassed the two most popular choices (both Republican lies) in favor of the third. That just stinks of the type of bias Politifact is supposed to remain above. As for the statement itself, its veracity depends on what “end” means. Given the ambiguity the way I assess its honesty is to see if the statement is misleading. It clearly was. People on Medicare would naturally fear that GOP pols had voted to end their current benefits when that did not occur. So I have no problem with it being labelled a lie. Or even for it to being called the Lie of the Year if the procedures for determining that award didn’t seem to have been rigged in order to get the result most convenient for Politifact. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/20 "2011-12-21T21:37:30Z")
I mentioned here awhile back getting a Democratic fundraising letter from “Leader Pelosi” et al, claiming that “Republicans voted to end Medicare”, and recognizing that it was bullshit. Good for Politifact. If it’s not the biggest lie of 2011, it’s right up there with the leaders. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984.md?page=2)