# Progressives Unhappy With Politifact's Biggest Lie of 2011 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984 "2011-12-21T19:58:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/61 "2011-12-23T03:11:22Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > First of all, the fucking [National Review](http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/286301/re-mediscare-2011-s-lie-year-robert-verbruggen) says they got it wrong. And Politifact’s reader poll disagreed with them, despite Paul Ryan emailing people to tell them to get out and skew the vote. So Bricker’s pathetic attempt to turn this into a partisan, “both sides do it” sort of debate doesn’t fly. > > The whole thing is a ridiculous fail by Politifact. Ryan’s plan would replace Medicare, a system whereby old people get a card and get the majority of their medical expenses paid for without much fuss, to a voucher plan which forces Grandma to shop for insurance in our glorious free market with a voucher whose benefits are designed to lag the annual rise in healthcare premiums, which means Grandma will be assuming more and more out-of-pocket expenses as she gets older (and God forbid she need major surgery). This is not Medicare. It’s not even close. But apparently, so long as the Republicans call a voucher system “Medicare,” it’s a lie to say they want to end Medicare. And if I call my dog “Bricker” and I claim that Bricker pissed on my kitchen floor yesterday, it would be a lie to say that my dog is not Bricker. > > This whole thing happened because Politifact craves the appearance of “balance.” Their previous Lies of the Year were Republican lies, all their other candidates this year for Lie of the Year were Republican lies, their readers voted for a Republican lie, but they didn’t want another year of the online conservatrolls harassing them for their “liberal bias,” so they bent over backwards to throw a bone to conservatives. And now that the supposed left is criticizing them for it…well, that’s balance! They’ve proven their non-partisan bona fides, which in today’s news biz is more important than honesty. > > So enjoy this one, conservatives. You’ve so cowed the Liberal Media, they won’t even call a spade a spade anymore. > [@Bricker](#): > > Is that the editorial position of the National Review? > > Or is that a blogger who has a blog on the online version of the National Review? > > And while I do appreciate your new-found reverence for the National Review’s analytical prowess (or the prowess of its bloggers), I can’t help but think you don’t really mean it. Well, IMHO there is no bigger lie now than opposing science just because it is inconvenient to the corporations that pollute. The author of _ **The Republican war on science** _ has this to say: > **[Can Fact Checking be Politically “Neutral,” When Facts Are Not Equally...](https://www.desmog.com/2011/12/15/can-fact-checking-be-politically-neutral-when-facts-are-not-equally-distributed-across-political-spectrum/)** > > Recently, I sat in on an off-the-record meeting about political fact-checking. I can’t report or quote from the event, but it spurred along some general thoughts that had already arisen in the context of writing The Republican Brain, which focuses a... > [@](#): > > I would suggest that a “balanced” approach to fact-checking is always susceptible to this sort of pitfall, in any area where the truth is not equally distributed across both sides—but one nevertheless strains to achieve a semblance of phony parity. > > What are some such areas? > > Science is clearly one of them. The U.S. political right, not the U.S. political left, is currently at war with scientific reality on issues ranging from global warming to evolution. So it is not a subject that you can really be “balanced” about. (Although it is worth pointing out any left wing science abuses, e.g., Obama and Plan B.) > > Thankfully, the fact-checkers do seem to appreciate this, at least to an extent. Thus, the Washington Post recently gave Texas governor Rick Perry “Four Pinocchios” for his absurdly conspiratorial statements about climate researchers. > … > And…well, don’t even get me started on health care. > > This, I think, is why a site like Media Matters gives politically “neutral” fact-checkers such a run for their money. At least at the current moment in American politics, the two sides—Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, what have you—are not equally moored in reality. They disagree sharply over what is true; and one side, more than the other, is actually right. > > Or as Stephen Colbert put it: “Reality has a well known liberal bias.” > > I want to stress that in this environment, anyone dedicated to the truth is to be treasured and admired. Not only do the “neutral” fact checkers have such a dedication—they’re vastly more accurate, overall, than those they purport to check. I think this is indisputable—and they do, indeed, catch liberals and Democrats in real falsehoods and errors. > > **But in such an environment, these “neutrals” must also beware: Play too much tit-for-tat, too much “pox on both houses,” and you’re going to end up less accurate than fact-checkers coming from the left—simply because of the current alignment of the two political camps with respect to reality.** ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/62 "2011-12-23T03:43:47Z")
So the thread has devolved into whether or not the lie picked as Politifact’s “Biggest Lie of the Year” is actually the biggest lie of the year? That seems kind of weak to me. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/63 "2011-12-23T05:58:17Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Apparently, you do not understand what was said to you. You quoted the opinion of an author on the blog portion of the NRO, and then have proceeded to extrapolate that to being the majority opinion of the NRO without showing that to be true. Bricker made two different objections: - The POV of a blogger was ascribed to the editorial position of NR as a whole - That **MOIDALIZE** had new business quoting the NR because he wouldn’t normally agree with them Obviously **BigT** ’s post that you quoted dealt entirely with objection two, and not objection one. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So the thread has devolved into whether or not the lie picked as Politifact’s “Biggest Lie of the Year” is actually the biggest lie of the year? That seems kind of weak to me. No, I’m not sure where you’re getting that. There are roughly three clusters of opinion in this thread: the ‘lie’ is not a lie; the lie is a lie, but it’s a minor one by comparison to some others; the lie is a lie, and it’s reasonable to consider it the lie of the year. All are actively being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/64 "2011-12-23T07:42:52Z")
Let us say that Medicare as we know it is a sheep, a sheep designed to ensure that as people age the government will pay for the medical care they need, regardless of their level of personal wealth. Now when Ryan set out a bill that replaced government payments with vouchers, vouchers DESIGNED to lag behind the rising cost of health care, so that many seniors would NOT be able to get the health care they needed, he might reasonably have been said to have replaced that sheep with a wolf. Sure, it still had sheep’s clothing … it was called Medicaid … but it was NOT anything like Medicaid as we know it. So Politifact is calling the Dems liars for crying “wolf” when there IS in fact a wolf, on the grounds that it has SHEEP’S CLOTHING, i.e., it’s still called “Medicaid.” Pathetic. Just freaking pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/65 "2011-12-23T08:17:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, but if you put forth a plan to end the armed services in fifteen years, and I ran an ad against that plan showing current soldiers standing helplessly outside their locked barracks, you would have cause to question my ad’s accuracy. Why? Did the ad claim those were actual pictures of people who had lost their medicare at some point in the future from the not yet determined end of medicare? I don’t know about you, but I don’t think a single person thought that. It wasn’t presented as a newsreel, it was clearly speculation. As for killing Medicare, that is exactly what the Ryan Plan does, if by killing you mean substantially changing it, which is exactly what the Ryan Plan does according to Ryan. And that is the way the term is used in political rhetoric by all sides. If your claim of a lie is that the plan is not a living being which can be killed, well boy did you catch me on that one. So what exactly is the lie being told here? Over and over again you’ve cast aspersions on the claim and found nothing but quibbles. No one is left with a misimpression as a result of the content of the ad. The producers of the ad are using common political techniques to highlight the disadvantages of a proposal, and ignore any advantages. That is the way politics is played. Ignorant people may see these ads and fail to grasp that an issue is more complex than what they have learned in 30 seconds, but that type of dishonesty permeates the system and is no more evident here than in any other political statement. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/66 "2011-12-23T12:11:27Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So the thread has devolved into whether or not the lie picked as Politifact’s “Biggest Lie of the Year” is actually the biggest lie of the year? That seems kind of weak to me. First, I disagree that’s what this thread has devolved into. Second, the thread should cover that, because if it is not a lie, or if it is only slightly misleading, then calling it the Lie of the Year would be wrong. If that’s the case, then Krugman may be justified in his assertions that PolitFact made it so to seem balanced. Are you going to add something useful to this conversation, or just throw out one-liners that have nothing to do with the subject at hand? Are you here just to make fun of liberals or to debate the merits of the OP? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/67 "2011-12-23T12:41:34Z")
By the way, in [today’s column](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/opinion/krugman-the-post-truth-campaign.html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail0=y) Krugman takes on Mitt Romney’s lies, giving top billing to the “equality of outcomes” one. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/68 "2011-12-23T13:49:10Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > By the way, in [today’s column](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/opinion/krugman-the-post-truth-campaign.html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail0=y) Krugman takes on Mitt Romney’s lies, giving top billing to the “equality of outcomes” one. Yeah, his blog posts are often warm-ups for his columns. He also mentions this one in his column: [QUOTE=Mitt Romney] I will reverse President Obama’s massive defense cuts. [/QUOTE] Which is apparently completely untrue. Since Romney isn’t a member of this board, AFAIK, I’ll just go ahead and call him a liar right here in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/69 "2011-12-23T15:11:54Z")
**Bricker** , 1. Please define Medicare. 2. Please describe the program for public supported health insurance as defined by Paul Ryan, referenced in the comments and ads in question. Explain to me whether they are the same or different. You may include comparisons of their structure, function goals and likely outcomes. For one who sometimes values a precision of language that borders on pathological, your stance here is at odds. I know that you cry foul when I suggest that your positions are driven simply by partisanship, but this thread is the perfect example. There are no two ways around it - the Ryan plan functionally, substantially, and in estimated outcomes ends Medicare. It’s that simple. The truly disingenuous aspect of all this is that most Republicans in any other context would frankly acknowledge that ending Medicare is a party plank. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/70 "2011-12-23T17:02:25Z")
Mr. Ryan appears to be largely concerned that America’s health insurance industry shall not be further punished and persecuted. As many of you already know, America’s health insurance industry is the pride of the nation. Any conversation concerning them will be awash with a flood of happy anecdotes, Americans singing joyful praise for an industry that is humane, generous, and noble. How many times have you heard friends and neighbors gushing with joyful praise for the industry and its fervent determination to better the lives of its customers? I, for one, cannot even count them all. To be sure, there are some critics and malcontents, the same sort of people who grumble darkly when it is suggested that we invest all of our Social Security funds into the vibrant and robust stock market, to be carefully managed by the same professionals who have brought such sound security to pension funds across the nation. These are people who don’t understand how the real world works, and can be safely ignored. Or shouted down, as the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/71 "2011-12-23T17:18:26Z")
While waiting for **Bricker’s** summary of the matter, I thought it might be helpful to find one of the many nutshell summaries of the issue. Here’s one from Gawker, specifically called out by PolitiFact in their pathetic and defensive defense of their decision: [http://gawker.com/5869817/politifact-is-bad-for-you](http://gawker.com/5869817/politifact-is-bad-for-you) > [@](#): > > Politifact considers “end Medicare” a lie because Paul Ryan’s plan would keep a program called “Medicare” as the public policy solution to the problem of financing health care for old people. But the “Medicare” program, as long as it’s been around, has been a single-payer, fee-for-service model. That’s what it is, and that’s why it’s popular. Ryan’s plan (at least that version of it) would eliminate that system and deal with the problem of financing health care for old people with a program of “premium support” — distributing coupons for beneficiaries to purchase a health insurance plan in a managed private market. […] Can you say that a program that keeps the name Medicare, but is in fact a totally different program, “ends Medicare”? Sure. It’s an entirely different program, one that will short recipients of the amount needed to cover their care. I’m reminded of the old SNL skit about a store selling knockoff electronics, repeatedly claiming that they have “Sony guts”. Here, the guts (and bones) of the program are completely different, no matter what label you put on it. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/72 "2011-12-24T19:56:25Z")
The problem is that Poltifact is misgrading these statements by their own scale: > [@Politifact](#): > > TRUE – The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing. > > MOSTLY TRUE – The statement is accurate but needs clarification or additional information. > > HALF TRUE – The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details or takes things out of context. > > MOSTLY FALSE – The statement contains an element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression. > > FALSE – The statement is not accurate. > > PANTS ON FIRE – The statement is not accurate and makes a ridiculous claim. The statement “Republicans voted to end Medicare” at worst should be graded Mostly False. There is definitely an element of truth to that statement, as the Republicans did vote to drastically change Medicare. Unfortunately, Politifact has fallen to the “present both sides of the argument” as the standard for balance. I mean, look at the article for one of Obama’s statements that made the top ten: > [@](#): > > “I didn’t raise taxes once. I lowered taxes over the last two years,” Obama said. > > We wanted to fact-check that statement, and we’ll begin by saying Obama boils down an awful lot of complexity about federal tax policy into a short sound bite. > > Looking at the whole statement, he’s both right and wrong. If he’s both right and wrong, then there is absolutely no way that they should rate the statement false. If it is partly right, then at worst it contains an element of truth, and should be rated mostly false. I mean here are the top 5 republican lies: > [@](#): > > The economic stimulus created “zero jobs.” – The National Republican Senatorial Committee and other Republicans 24% > > Abortion services are “well over 90 percent of what Planned Parenthood does.”- Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz. 17% > > Scientists are “questioning the original idea that man-made global warming is what is causing the climate to change. … (It is) more and more being put into question.” – Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry 11% > > The vaccine to prevent HPV can cause mental retardation. – Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann 10% > > President Obama “went around the world and apologized for America.” – Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney I’d be willing to call Romney’s an exaggeration, but the others are absolutely 100% false, with no room for debate. Compare that to the Deomcratic ones, which are exaggerations, not outright lies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/73 "2011-12-28T23:10:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Paul Krugman’s [conscience](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/politifact-r-i-p/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto) is shocked by the fact that Politifact, known for their ratings of various statements by politicians from True to Half True to False to Pants-on-Fire, has selected as their [“Lie of the Year,”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/dec/20/lie-year-democrats-claims-republicans-voted-end-me/) the Democrat’s claim that seniors would have to pay $12,500 more for health care “because Republicans voted to end Medicare.” > > Krugman focuses his rebuttal on the simple claim of “ending” Medicare, contending it’s a fair claim to make because the privatization plan would have drastically changed the program. But Politifact addresses that, noting that its concern was with the overreaching nature of the claims: > > My own opinion is that Krugman privately thought of Politifact as an ally, and is upset to see his ally attacking friendly forces. But that’s pure speculation on my part. What’s undenaible is that Krugman, along with Talking Points Memo, Daily Kos, and The New Republic clearly believe Politifact’s analysis should never have been published. Whether they think this because they believe it to be flawed, or simply strategically unfriendly, is for another day. For now: Is Politifact correct to call the left’s collection of claims about Ryan’s plan a lie? A big lie? I don’t know how that was the lie of the year but I think the left has long considered outfits like politifact and truth generally as its ally for a long time now. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/74 "2011-12-28T23:18:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know how that was the lie of the year but I think the left has long considered outfits like politifact and truth generally as its ally for a long time now. “Reality has a well-known liberal bias” - Stephen Colbert. 🙂 Joking aside, I would had put as lie of the year the one from the Republicans that goes like: > [@](#): > > Scientists are “questioning the original idea that man-made global warming is what is causing the climate to change. … (It is) more and more being put into question.” – Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry Because the scary thing is that almost all the Republicans in congress embrace it, not only Perry. It guarantees that even feeble attempts at dealing with the issue will be stopped for years to come. I agree with the writer of _The Republican war on science_, many Republican ideas nowadays are not based in reality. Proposing a false equivalency like Politifact is doing here is also stretching the truth. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984/75 "2011-12-28T23:46:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know how that was the lie of the year but I think the left has long considered outfits like politifact and truth generally as its ally for a long time now. I have no idea who ‘the left’ are, but I’ve never met anyone who thought Politifact could tell the truth from a hole in their ass. I imagine many people have done what Bricker is doing here, giving credence to Politifact when their incoherent rants support a particular opinion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/progressives-unhappy-with-politifacts-biggest-lie-of-2011/606984.md?page=3)