# prohibition is the problem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 4, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859 "2005-03-04T04:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/21 "2005-03-06T00:40:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure what your saying here. Are you saying that violating the law is an immoral act regardless of the law being violated? Or are you saying that the risk of getting caught outweighs the potential benefits of violating any particular law? I’m saying that violating the law is in itself immoral, unless the law itself mandates that you do an immoral act, or refrain from doing a moral one. But, in general, a person has an obligation to be a “good citizen”, and obey the laws of the community in which he or she lives. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/22 "2005-03-06T00:47:19Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > This is part of the problem too. Why is being in a euphoric, peaceful state a bad thing? Should homosexuals not have the right to have sex in their own privacy? After all, it isn’t necessary for life, and doesn’t provide benefits other than pleasure… (Not my opinion. I’m sure there are plenty of other benefits too 😉 ) I just don’t understand why there are groups of people in the world who want to prevent others from feeling good when the actions really hurt no one. There’s nothing wrong with being in a euphoric peaceful state, or gays having sex in the privacy of their homes. Sodomy laws have already been repealed, and I think pot should be legalized. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that every current law should be obeyed regardless? Generally, yes, except, again, when the individual law is so terrible… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/23 "2005-03-06T01:03:50Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I’m saying that violating the law is in itself immoral, unless the law itself mandates that you do an immoral act, or refrain from doing a moral one. But, in general, a person has an obligation to be a “good citizen”, and obey the laws of the community in which he or she lives. Okay. I disagree. Arbitrary adherence to the law is not what makes one a good citizen. Respect for your fellow citizens well-being and property is what makes you a good citizen. Breaking anti-pot laws does not show disrespect for either, and therefore maybe disregarded to the extent that one does not fall afoul of the agencies tasked to enforce said laws. Which, of course, is simply a matter of self-preservation and not morality. Or, to look at it another way, I never agreed to follow any of the laws of this country. However, since my life and my property are protected by many of those laws, it would be hypocritical of me to violate them while still under their protection. Anti-drug laws do offer me any protection from anything. Therefore, I have no moral qualms about violating them. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with being in a euphoric peaceful state, or gays having sex in the privacy of their homes. Sodomy laws have already been repealed, and I think pot should be legalized. Before those laws were repealed, do you think that gays living in states that had sodomy laws should have refrained from having sex? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/24 "2005-03-06T01:03:59Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > doesn’t provide benefits other than the euphoria that comes from intoxication. They’re free to stop. > > I don’t know, maybe it’s me. I just have trouble understanding why somebody would knowingly disobey a law, unless the law was so incredibly wicked that obeying it would be a great moral evil. Pot laws just don’t pass that test for me. If you’re willing to accept the possible legal consequences of your actions, I don’t see a clear moral reason not to disobey an unjust law. These are laws rooted in lies and responsible for sending far too many harmless people to prison. If someone doesn’t want to use marijuana for health-related reasons, or simply doesn’t like the taste, smell, effects, or whatever, that’s great. If getting arrested is not a risk they’re willing to take, that’s okay, too. But to avoid it simply because It’s The Law is wrong, IMHO. It lends tacit support to a system that wastes billions depriving people of their freedom for a victimless crime, while hypocritically allowing equally-or-more dangerous drugs (alcohol, tobacco) to be sold at any convenience store. These are laws that are clearly not aligned with any kind of sane moral code, so I have trouble understanding how anyone would feel any kind of moral obligation not to violate them. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/25 "2005-03-06T13:26:09Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Generally, yes, except, again, when the individual law is so terrible… Well there ya go. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/26 "2005-03-06T21:26:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay. I disagree. Arbitrary adherence to the law is not what makes one a good citizen. Respect for your fellow citizens well-being and property is what makes you a good citizen. Breaking anti-pot laws does not show disrespect for either, and therefore maybe disregarded to the extent that one does not fall afoul of the agencies tasked to enforce said laws. Which, of course, is simply a matter of self-preservation and not morality. Adherence to the law, and respect for your fellow citizens’ well being and property all go into making you a good citizen. Breaking the law shows disrespect for the state, which you have obligations to, merely by being a citizen. > [@](#): > > Before those laws were repealed, do you think that gays living in states that had sodomy laws should have refrained from having sex? Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/27 "2005-03-07T16:57:02Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Adherence to the law, and respect for your fellow citizens’ well being and property all go into making you a good citizen. Breaking the law shows disrespect for the state, which you have obligations to, merely by being a citizen. I don’t have respect for the state. I reserve my respect for people, not institutions. Similarly, I have no obligations to the state. I have obligations to my fellow citizens, many of which require the apparatus of the state for me to properly observe, but the state itself is just a tool towards that end. It does not deserve respect, nor demand any obligation to itself independent of the citizenry it comprises. > [@](#): > > Probably. Wow. Just… wow. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/28 "2005-03-07T17:24:28Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Before those laws were repealed, do you think that gays living in states that had sodomy laws should have refrained from having sex? > > Probably. I guess by the same logic those uppity negroes should have just followed the law and sat in the back of the bus until our government graciously changed the laws on its own. Some laws are not just. They should be fought against. I agree with the OP that by making dope (heh) illegal they are driving the market toward large scale producers with a lot at stake who are willing to break further laws to protect their assets. For a plant we could all grow in our backyards. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/29 "2005-03-07T17:43:17Z")
> [@Ghanima](#): > > I guess by the same logic those uppity negroes should have just followed the law and sat in the back of the bus until our government graciously changed the laws on its own. I didn’t say that. I’ve said that I support fighting to repeal bad laws, and I support non-violent resistance to oppose unjust ones. But the default should be obedience of the laws. > [@](#): > > Some laws are not just. They should be fought against. I agree with the OP that by making dope (heh) illegal they are driving the market toward large scale producers with a lot at stake who are willing to break further laws to protect their assets. For a plant we could all grow in our backyards. You’re right, some laws aren’t just, and they should be fought against. I don’t think laws criminalizing pot are inherantly unjust. I think they’re bad, and I think they’re stupid. But a law can be stupid without being unjust. You can make a really good argument that segregation laws are unjust, in my mind. You can make a good argument that sodomy laws are unjust. (which is why I only said probably to the earlier question, and not definately). I don’t think you can make a good argument that criminalizing pot is unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/30 "2005-03-07T18:17:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I have obligations to my fellow citizens, many of which require the apparatus of the state for me to properly observe, but the state itself is just a tool towards that end. It does not deserve respect, nor demand any obligation to itself independent of the citizenry it comprises. Having just filed this years taxes, and having, last night, talked to my grandmother about her brother in law who died in WWII after being drafted, I could question the factual validity of that statement. But if you’d prefer me to rephrase it, those laws were adopted by the elected representatives of the citizens as a whole, whose job it is to do the popular will. So, by obeying the laws, you’re fufilling your obligation to the citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![galt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@galt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/31 "2005-03-07T18:24:49Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > You’re right, some laws aren’t just, and they should be fought against. I don’t think laws criminalizing pot are inherantly unjust. I think they’re bad, and I think they’re stupid. But a law can be stupid without being unjust. If a “bad” or “stupid” law can be used to put someone in prison, then it’s inherently unjust and should be fought. (for the record, I have no desire to smoke pot, but I believe very strongly that it should not be illegal) ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/32 "2005-03-07T18:25:42Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > You can make a really good argument that segregation laws are unjust, in my mind. You can make a good argument that sodomy laws are unjust. (which is why I only said probably to the earlier question, and not definately). I don’t think you can make a good argument that criminalizing pot is unjust. For me, it is the fact the government actually should have no right to even make this kind of law. It seems utterly ridiculous to me that the government should control the growth of a plant. Not to mention that even if you think pot is bad because it is bad for you (or because it holds no benefits for society), that the people who use it are punished with fines and jail time. But by far it concerns me more that the government can interfere in our private lives to such an extent. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/33 "2005-03-07T18:37:23Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Having just filed this years taxes, and having, last night, talked to my grandmother about her brother in law who died in WWII after being drafted, I could question the factual validity of that statement. Which is what I meant when I said some obligations can only be met through the apparatus of the state. I don’t pay taxes out of obligation to the state, I pay them out of obligation to my fellow citizens. The state is merely the means through which that obligation is met. The same with military service, to an extent. If I don’t meet those obligations, people are going to be harmed. I do not have an obligation to refrain from smoking a doobie, or, for that matter, having butt-sex in Texas, because no one is harmed by either of those actions. > [@](#): > > But if you’d prefer me to rephrase it, those laws were adopted by the elected representatives of the citizens as a whole, whose job it is to do the popular will. So, by obeying the laws, you’re fufilling your obligation to the citizenry. Immaterial. I have an obligation not to harm my fellow citizens. I do not have an obligation to obey them. The fact that a majority of American voters think that I should not smoke pot does not obligate me to agree or acquiesce with their views, until such time as they can present material evidence that me smoking pot is causing them tangible harm. I would also argue that stupid laws are, by definition, unjust. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859/34 "2005-03-07T18:39:39Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t think laws criminalizing pot are inherantly unjust. I think they’re bad, and I think they’re stupid. But a law can be stupid without being unjust. Tell me then, why is it fair that one man’s vice is sold openly and legally in stores, while another man’s vice, which is not more dangerous by any objective standard, is a valid reason to steal away years of freedom from his life? Go ahead and tell me how that’s fucking fair. Please. I’d really love to hear it. If people don’t break unjust laws, incorrect public perception of them remains unchanged. In other words, if a person doesn’t know anyone who illegally smokes marijuana, he has little reason to disbelieve even the most absurd government propaganda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prohibition-is-the-problem/292859.md?page=1)