# Prolifers, in what situation is it morally acceptable for a woman to abort pregnancy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755 "2004-12-14T07:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/41 "2004-12-14T17:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Just to add to the original post, a scenario which involves “conception” and abortion that many support (which some pro-lifers might also support) involves scientists making a sperm and an egg get together in a laboratory, then screening it for severe disabilities (there could be tradition of life-threatening hereditary problems in that family)… if the scientists found it they could kill the fertilized egg. I wonder if pro-lifers would think that is killing a human baby… - or if it is morally acceptable… This goes into another sub-debate. If a fetus is fully human, Does a fetus have a right to use that womb as long as s/he does not cause excessive damage in the process? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/42 "2004-12-14T18:02:13Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > Of course? Why “of course”? If life begins at conception then it begins at conception from rape and incest as well. The fetus/child is not a party to whatever activity that led to its existence. > > I have always found the rape or incest exception to be philosophically troubling. Indeed it seems to me to give lie to the claim of pro-lifers that it’s all about the innocent unborn child. When you invoke the rape or inceat exception what you seem to be saying in effect is “Well, the mother wasn’t an immoral slut so she shouldn’t be punished for having sex.” While that’s over the top, it’s really what it comes down to, isn’t it? I’ve been struggling with this a lot recently as well. It always seems to be an afterthought, especially for politicians (but should I be expecting any different?). The Republicans are usually “pro-life, except in cases of rape and incest”. I just don’t get why it’s morally okay to kill a baby if the mother was raped or got pregnant from her brother/father/uncle. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/43 "2004-12-14T18:16:28Z")
The “biological burden” argument is right on, dude! After all, the burden of childbirth is why women live such shorter lives than men… (Not saying men should necessarily not have fiscal responsibility for a baby, just that in the balance of things, women having the upper hand in deciding if there will be a fiscal burden rings hollow when faced with overall lifespan rates.) Oh, and I have a hormonal bonding issue with a girl I knew in high school. If I didn’t suck it up and realize I have to live my own life I’d be described as “creepy”. Come to think of it, the various women who carried a child for someone else per a legal contract, then decided to keep it for themselves aren’t completely lacking creepiness. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/44 "2004-12-14T18:22:49Z")
Damnit, damnit, damnit! I really put my mouth into my foot on this one. I meant **pro-choicers** , NOT pro-lifers. How could I screw that up? What I was really asking is why women have an absolute right to terminate their parental rights/obligations while men don’t have the same rights. I’m refering to uncomplicated pregancy in healthy individuals where the main objection to the pregnancy is convenience factors. Uhhg, why can’t you people read what I mean instead of reading what I say? ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/45 "2004-12-14T21:27:35Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Damnit, damnit, damnit! I really put my mouth into my foot on this one. I meant **pro-choicers** , NOT pro-lifers. How could I screw that up? Maybe email a mod and ask them to fix it? > [@](#): > > What I was really asking is why women have an absolute right to terminate their parental rights/obligations while men don’t have the same rights. I’m refering to uncomplicated pregancy in healthy individuals where the main objection to the pregnancy is convenience factors. Before answering this, I’d really like to know what you mean by “convenience factors”. If you think an unwanted pregnancy is ‘inconvenient’, then there’s not much I can say, since I know many people who would kill themselves before continuing a pregnancy, if nothing else worked. That would indicate that for them pregnancy is quite a bit more than just ‘inconvenient’. And why does the woman have the absolute right? Because biology makes it so. Unfortunately, the female of the species has to endure any emotional and physical consequences of aborting or continuing a pregnancy. This is why the choice is hers. It’s a better situation if both female and male discuss and agree (even better if they do so prior to having sex) on what to do, but if there’s a disagreement, the tie breaker is the woman’s since she’ll be the one undergoing the actual procedure (birth or abortion). Once the child is born, it needs to be cared for. This may be by the biological parents, or may be by adopted parents, however unless someone else legally accepts the rights and responsibilities of the child, the financial responsibility belongs to the two who created it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/46 "2004-12-14T21:53:17Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Damnit, damnit, damnit! I really put my mouth into my foot on this one. I meant **pro-choicers** , NOT pro-lifers. How could I screw that up? > > What I was really asking is why women have an absolute right to terminate their parental rights/obligations while men don’t have the same rights. I’m refering to uncomplicated pregancy in healthy individuals where the main objection to the pregnancy is convenience factors. > > Uhhg, why can’t you people read what I mean instead of reading what I say? Terminating a pregnancy is not a termination of parental obligations. She never was a parent. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/47 "2004-12-14T23:04:27Z")
Oh good then. So we can participate. Do I need to reiterate my questions or do they stand well enough as they are now? Or we can just pretend they’re not there and ignore my muddle-headedness. (Ya know, since I’m usually afraid of venturing into GD territory and I’m more than a little worried about coming across as a ignorant dolt.) ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/48 "2004-12-14T23:51:32Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > the burden of childbirth is why women live such shorter lives than men… Say what? In all developed countries and almost all underdeveloped ones, women outlive men. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/49 "2004-12-14T23:58:27Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Say what? > > In all developed countries and almost all underdeveloped ones, women outlive men. Whoooooosh! ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/50 "2004-12-15T00:04:02Z")
I guess now I don’t qualify for the thread but I’ll respond anyway. > [@faithfool](#): > > Last of all, why is there a presumption that _everyone_ would have chosen life versus abortion if given the opportunity in the womb? I know _I_ wouldn’t have. But it doesn’t matter, because saying that if they feel “… so horrific about his conception that he doesn’t wish to be alive than so be it let him end his life.” is naive at best. Perhaps they’ve been raised with a moral ideology that prevents them from suicide. Or they just can’t bring themselves to go through with it, much like you saying that you “will not make that decision for him.” Or any of a thousand different scenarios that we can’t fathom unless we know after the fact about the circumstances surrounding what happened before our mother became pregnant. I agree that its a sticky situation but I don’t think the solution is to kill the fetus. I would hope that the child would get counseling and therapy it could have a somewhat happy life. I don’t claim to have all the answers but I can’t see how killing is the best solution. > [@faithfool](#): > > I just don’t see how one can claim that this side is ‘playing God’ by choosing termination and not feel that _they_ are doing _exactly the same thing_, but only _after_ birth and for the rest of this person’s existence. It confounds me and sometimes I loathe/detest/resent/can’t fathom why over the long term that my mother for picking the option that she did. It was the easy way out for her and _I_ pay the penalty. I’m not in the _least_ appreciative. But there you go. Another side to the coin that’s very rarely mentioned. Well I don’t think I am playing God. I am not the rapist I just want to protect innocent life. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/51 "2004-12-15T00:26:28Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Well I don’t think I am playing God. I am not the rapist I just want to protect innocent life. Thanks for answering me **treis** , finally I’m not completely invisible here in Great Debates. Anyway, what I meant by the “playing God” across the board statement was that one can’t know. Pro-Choicers cannot know for _certain_ that life doesn’t begin at conception or any other convictions they may hold. Similarly, Pro-Lifers cannot know for certain that any kind of better life, to any degree, is preferable to abortion. As in my case, I think that would have not only been the right thing to do, but it certainly would have been an improvement. And despite what my absence in life may or may not offer to those around me, it is my decision of what I’d have had my mother “choose” no matter what anyone else believes to the contrary. Futhermore, again can some- /any- one answer this part of my first post: > [@](#): > > What if, say the woman has long since decided that she doesn’t want children due to what she can/will pass on to them (IE: in my case, a very extensive family history of mental illness), yet is then raped? > > In this instance, as far as I can tell, part (or most) of her dilemma is due to concern for the life of the child _after_ it’s born and what it will face, even in adoption by a loving, desirous family. To me, choosing to terminate the pregnancy, no matter how difficult, would be an act of love and mercy (and I know, because I would have preferred this as a fetus versus my life, but obviously, YMMV). Saving the baby from growing up with an already attached stigma, dealing with something that may be untreatable or far beyond their abilities (resulting in being disowned, suicide, etc.) and/or then eventually passing it on to _their_ offspring in a view of apathy, disdain for the condition (or being traumatized/numbed against it) or not understanding the nature of the beast. That’s what I feel in my heart would be the best gift to give to the one everyone agrees is the innocent party here. I would never bring a child into the world to even potentially face that. Just assuming that they might not have or may be able to overcome it wouldn’t be good enough for me. That is where I’d believe I was playing God in the other direction. Gambling about what I’d _hope_ for versus a reality that has a possible chance of turning out that way because there’s already a known commodity in play (or a history, whatever). I guess I’m just not quite understanding all the sides, but I’ll continue to try. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/52 "2004-12-15T00:30:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Terminating a pregnancy is not a termination of parental obligations. She never was a parent. I thought you were leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/53 "2004-12-15T00:58:17Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > I thought you were leaving. It turns out I was invited after all. Didn’t you get the memo? > [@threemae](#): > > Damnit, damnit, damnit! I really put my mouth into my foot on this one. I meant pro-choicers, NOT pro-lifers. How could I screw that up? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/54 "2004-12-15T01:04:09Z")
:smack: Apparently, I didn’t. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Iskatel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a5b964/32.png) [@Iskatel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iskatel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/55 "2004-12-15T01:14:24Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > So, pro-lifers, in what situations does a woman have a right to obtain an abortion? I’m somewhat split on the issue. I believe both sides are right (that isn’t an impossibility). But I’ll speak for the pro-life side of me: only in cases of rape, or medical danger to the mother or child. That seems pretty simple and reasonable to the pro-life side of me. The rape thing is a little trickier. I would prefer state recompense and medical care for the duration of the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption, but that is still somewhat of stealing 9 months of a woman’s life, and it is still a very traumatic event (as a whole). ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/56 "2004-12-15T01:34:23Z")
In addition to what **Iskatel** mentions as a very traumatic event to the woman if she’s raped, can you imagine what kind of damage that would do to the child if she kept and was honest about the conception? I mean, one hopes that the love she offered would overcome that (especially if she said things like “I wanted you so badly no matter how you got here. I loved you from the moment I knew and couldn’t bear losing you in any way.”), but again, there’s no guarantee. And they would grow up with that knowledge, hating their “father,” not knowing pertinent medical information and possibly wondering if it was predisposed through genetics that they’d either do the same thing or destined to have it happen to them because they somehow deserved it. That sounds so unbelievably horrible to thrust that willing on someone. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/57 "2004-12-15T01:36:26Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > Pregnancy carries with it many health risks, including the risk of diabetes, permanent back problems, infertility from an infection or botched delivery, and hormonal changes, which can take several years to go back to “normal” (pre-pregnancy levels). Also, there is often a hormone-influenced bond that forms between the mother and the baby once the baby is born, which inhibits adoption. Carrying a baby to term is a much bigger investment than, say, leaving a cake in the oven the full twenty minutes. The OP already addressed cases where the health of the mother is threatened. I was only talking about healthy pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/58 "2004-12-15T01:39:43Z")
> [@curly chick](#): > > If that was the case, how could anyone ever call themselves pro-life? What you are describing sounds to me like pro-choice, rather than pro-life. > > Anything I’ve ever read or heard about the pro-life point of view is that the woman never has any right to terminate a pregnancy and that the right of the unborn to be born is the only right that there is. For those of us in the mainstream pro-life movement, if the life of the mother is in danger, her life trumps that of the unborn child. ---
**Author:** ![Iskatel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a5b964/32.png) [@Iskatel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iskatel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/59 "2004-12-15T01:39:52Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > In addition to what **Iskatel** mentions as a very traumatic event to the woman if she’s raped, can you imagine what kind of damage that would do to the child if she kept and was honest about the conception? Wow, you know what, that’s something I never actually thought about. I guess in my idealistic mind the child would never know, but that is obviously a profound psychological marker, even beyond that of being an adopted kid. And it raises a number of questions: When the kid is of appropriate age, do they have a **right** to know this information? Should it be made available by the birth mother, the adoptive parent(s), or the state/adoption agency? _ponders_ ---
**Author:** ![Iskatel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a5b964/32.png) [@Iskatel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iskatel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/60 "2004-12-15T01:42:45Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > > [@curly chick](#): > > > > Anything I’ve ever read or heard about the pro-life point of view is that the woman never has any right to terminate a pregnancy and that the right of the unborn to be born is the only right that there is. > > For those of us in the mainstream pro-life movement, if the life of the mother is in danger, her life trumps that of the unborn child. I agree, I don’t know what you’ve “ever” heard or read about the pro-life movement, but the mainstream attitude is (at the min) abortion being allowed in life-threatening cases (logically, even considering both as people, the prospective mother has rights the fetus can not express or have - consider it like a conjoined twin in a car accident case…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755.md?page=4)