# Prolifers, in what situation is it morally acceptable for a woman to abort pregnancy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755 "2004-12-14T07:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/141 "2004-12-15T22:02:56Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > **kanicbird** , you’re being very inconsistent here. You keep claiming that a fetus has a moral _and legal_ right to lifesupport inside a woman’s body, just because it’s there and must have such to survive. However, in every other instance mentioned, you say that either “someone else” is responsible, or the person has no such right. Yes, I did go off focus a bit here. But I still feel morally that that womb is a needed environment for this human to survive and as such should not be taken from it. > [@](#): > > The U.S. does not supply medication nor medical services to all who need them - that’s exactly what the entire health care debate is about. Yes, if you have an _immediate_, life-threatening emergency, theoretically you can’t be denied care You call me inconsistant? Anyway again this is off focus. > [@](#): > > But that’s beside the point–you’re really just trying to sidestep the whole exchange. A pregnant woman can’t pawn off a pregnancy onto someone else (at least not with today’s technology). So the question is, does a homeless person have the right to YOUR lawn, simply because they need a place to live? Does a starving person have the right to break into YOUR home and take food? Does a sick person have a right to steal YOUR medication, if they need it to live? Can YOU morally be forced to save another’s life, even though it will require invasion and use of YOUR body? If your answer to these questions is “no”, but you maintain your position regarding the rights of a fetus, then you’re saying that a fetus should have “special rights” not available to any other person. Please explain why you feel that such a double-standard should be used. The difference is that we were all fetuses at some point and have had that exact right, so no there is no difference, it’s how humans develop. Children have different rights as adults, men have different rights as women. Only legally do we try to equalize some of the rights. > [@](#): > > P.S. Your “natural” argument is asinine -… > …that mean you think it’s OK for a woman to abort, as long as she only uses “natural” methods? It goes beyond this, taking substances intentionally to kill our own healthy offspring (when we are not put into danger) is not a moral decision. > [@](#): > > But since science has yet to come up with a definition of life that everyone can agree upon, all we have to work with is opinion. Are you going to prove someone’s opinion wrong? The idea is not to prove wrong, but to gain clarification. > [@](#): > > A blob of unsentient tissue is not a person. I also think the definition of a “person” necessarily (but not exclusively) has to include a condition of not living in somebody’s stomach Ok so your answer is basically you don’t know. You seem to want to define it within the limits of viability if removed from the womb, to after the cord is cut. While my limits are conception to brainwave activity. I think I know your answer to this one as well, but if instead of abortion, if it was possible (hey I had to deal with future space aliens popping out of my stomach, you can deal w/ this one) to transplant a fetus w/ the same risk and trouble as aborting it, would you still like to see the mother be able to make the decision to kill the fetus if transplantation was possible? ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/142 "2004-12-15T22:14:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think I know your answer to this one as well, but if instead of abortion, if it was possible (hey I had to deal with future space aliens popping out of my stomach, you can deal w/ this one) to transplant a fetus w/ the same risk and trouble as aborting it, would you still like to see the mother be able to make the decision to kill the fetus if transplantation was possible? If transplantation technology was possible, would you be down at the hospital every nine months to carry another unwanted child? (Or your wife/mother/girlfriend/whatever, if you’re male.) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/143 "2004-12-15T22:19:45Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > Then I think we have come to the point of difference between us. I am convinced that the fetus must have permission from its owner to stay in the womb. Yes, and I feel a lot of ‘prochoice’ people feel the way you do but don’t care to say it in this way. So you do recognize that there is more then one item here, not just a pregnant woman, but a woman and a fetus. > [@](#): > > If the person does not wish to ‘rent out’ body parts, unfortunately, the other person (fetus) will be evicted. If it cannot survive without someone else’s body parts, then it will die, if no technology or willing donor is available. That living human being is at the mercy of others for survival, You are giving this lump of cells very human like characteristics, like being given permission, and being evicted, granted mercy, survival and death. Perhaps that’s just for my benifit. > [@](#): > > but that doesn’t force anyone to take mercy. Some may choose to take mercy, others not. Remember that we are talking about morals, some may lead moral lives, some may not, again we do have free will to break moral law. > [@](#): > > Can you please elaborate on this comment? I’m not sure what you are trying to say, and I’d like to understand your point of view on this issue. What does ‘natural’ have to do with two people, one needing the other’s body for survival? Well I did, but will say it again. This goes beyond the kidney at gunpoint arugment as we all came from a womb (well most of us, sometimes I wonder… well never mind) and as such needed that womb. I find it hypocritical for us as adults (or children) to turn around to others who just haven’t developed as far and say sorry pal, your SOL. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/144 "2004-12-15T22:24:26Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > If transplantation technology was possible, would you be down at the hospital every nine months to carry another unwanted child? (Or your wife/mother/girlfriend/whatever, if you’re male.) I said early on that it is morally wrong to abort if adoption is available, the same will apply to this, you need someone wanting to get the transplant and raise the child. I have not given enough though to the situation when there are no more people willing to adopt. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/145 "2004-12-15T22:45:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > So you do recognize that there is more then one item here, not just a pregnant woman, but a woman and a fetus. Yes, I do recognise that. > [@](#): > > You are giving this lump of cells very human like characteristics, like being given permission, and being evicted, granted mercy, survival and death. Perhaps that’s just for my benifit. No, it’s not for your benefit. I’ve never called it a ‘lump of cells’. > [@](#): > > Remember that we are talking about morals, some may lead moral lives, some may not, again we do have free will to break moral law. Just to check we’re on the same page, do you agree that people are able to choose whether to be moral or not? Should they be able to choose to be immoral? Should laws be changed so that is it more difficult to be immoral? > [@](#): > > Well I did, but will say it again. This goes beyond the kidney at gunpoint arugment as we all came from a womb (well most of us, sometimes I wonder… well never mind) and as such needed that womb. I find it hypocritical for us as adults (or children) to turn around to others who just haven’t developed as far and say sorry pal, your SOL. See, I don’t find it hypocritical, I find it unrelated. Yes, my mother chose to rent out her womb (and the following 18 years of her life). So did yours. But we all make different choices than our parents did, because we are different people, with different thoughts, so what my mother did has no bearing on what I should do. If she chose to rent out her womb, but not raise me, I would be a different person with different thoughts today. If she decided not to rent out her womb to me, I would not be here typing away, and she would’ve had a much different life, with very different thoughts/experiences. So I guess the fact that I was once X, due to other people’s choices, does not mean I have to make the same choices they did when I come across another X. I may make better choices, I may make worse choices, depending on the onlookers perspective. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/146 "2004-12-15T22:53:47Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > Just to check we’re on the same page, do you agree that people are able to choose whether to be moral or not? Should they be able to choose to be immoral? Should laws be changed so that is it more difficult to be immoral? The OP is about morality, not legality, not religion. I am just staying w/i the bounds of the OP, and saying it is immoral to abort. I am also acknowledging that people have free will and can act immoral. I don’t want to go into the states roll. (This is why I wanted to drop the kidney offshoot). > [@](#): > > See, I don’t find it hypocritical, I find it unrelated. Yes, my mother chose to rent out her womb (and the following 18 years of her life). Did you get a receipt? It’s not a fininatial transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/147 "2004-12-15T23:02:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The OP is about morality, not legality, not religion. I am just staying w/i the bounds of the OP, and saying it is immoral to abort. I am also acknowledging that people have free will and can act immoral. I don’t want to go into the states roll. (This is why I wanted to drop the kidney offshoot). Alrighty then. Thanks, now I understand where you’re coming from. You think it’s immoral, but acknowledge that people can act immorally. I’m sure you also acknowledge that not everybody agrees with your view on morals? It seems that we agree on most things (i.e, what the fetus is, etc) and just disagree on the final morality or immorality of abortion. > [@](#): > > Did you get a receipt? It’s not a fininatial transaction. Where did this come from? No, of course I didn’t get a receipt. I know it isn’t a financial transaction. Carrying a child to term is a huge thing. A major, life changing experience, and if you keep the child and raise it, it completely alters your life in almost every way. I fully realise it’s a huge deal, not just an exchange of parts. If it was as simple as a financial transaction, I might have done it a few times already, for others. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/148 "2004-12-15T23:13:41Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > Alrighty then. Thanks, now I understand where you’re coming from. > You think it’s immoral, but acknowledge that people can act immorally. > I’m sure you also acknowledge that not everybody agrees with your view on morals? Agreed, well I think that all people know that acting immorally is possible for humans, but I think what you are saying is what I consider moral others might consider immoral or amoral. Also I did stray from the OP myself, as it is easy to do here, by adding things like law. > [@](#): > > It seems that we agree on most things (i.e, what the fetus is, etc) and just disagree on the final morality or immorality of abortion. > Where did this come from? No, of course I didn’t get a receipt. I know it isn’t a financial transaction. Carrying a child to term is a huge thing. A major, life changing experience, and if you keep the child and raise it, it completely alters your life in almost every way. I fully realise it’s a huge deal, not just an exchange of parts. If it was as simple as a financial transaction, I might have done it a few times already, for others. It just seemed like you were devaulating the process. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/149 "2004-12-15T23:19:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Agreed, well I think that all people know that acting immorally is possible for humans, but I think what you are saying is what I consider moral others might consider immoral or amoral. Bingo. To me, abortion is amoral. To you it’s immoral. As long as you don’t hold me at gunpoint to prevent me aborting (if I was to fall pregnant), you and I have no problems, just a difference of opinion. > [@](#): > > It just seemed like you were devaulating the process. Sorry if that’s the impression I gave. I did not mean to. I am very aware of how big a deal being pregnant is, and how much bigger a deal being a parent is. Thanks for the chance to see another persons perspective. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/150 "2004-12-16T00:14:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > 88 percent of all legal abortions are performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and 56 percent take place within the first eight weeks of pregnancy. Only 1.4 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2002). > > Third-trimester abortions are extremely uncommon; fewer than 600 are performed per year. This irrefutable fact is documented by the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), the institution acknowledged by the Centers for Disease Control as having the most complete information on abortion practice. When Richard Cohen wrote in a June 1995 op-ed column that “just four one-hundredths of one percent of abortions are performed after 24 weeks,” and that “most, if not all, are performed because the fetus is found to be severely damanged or because the life of the mother is clearly in danger” > I know the second link is an opinion piece but the AGI numbers quoted are accurate, I just can’t find a direct link to the AGI results (they are frequently quoted in these debates). You keep throwing out “It’s not a human,” and “It’s not a person,” yet you offer nothing to back it up. Your post mentions 8 and 12 weeks. Again, from [Diary of an Unborn Baby](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html) > [@](#): > > Week 8: Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear. and > [@](#): > > Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb. Scientific proof that an unborn child has all a brain, a nervous system, and all major organs. If that isn’t a human being to you, then please tell me scientifically why not. If it’s because it’s not as developed as us, then would you say that a severely mentally retarded person isn’t a human? You claim it can’t feel pain. As stated above, by week 12 it most certainly feel pain, and it’s not difficult to figure out, that this doesn’t suddenly happen all at once, so it’s safe to say that it can feel pain before that, although to a lesser degree the further back in time you go. My belief that an unborn child is a human life isn’t based on faith or religion, it’s based on the scientific facts I’ve laid out before you and the other pro-choicers. I still have yet to hear from you, or any one else, a solid foundation behind the claims of “It’s not a human.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/151 "2004-12-16T00:23:15Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > You keep throwing out “It’s not a human,” and “It’s not a person,” yet you offer nothing to back it up. > Your post mentions 8 and 12 weeks. > Again, from [Diary of an Unborn Baby](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html) > > and > > Scientific proof that an unborn child has all a brain, a nervous system, and all major organs. If that isn’t a human being to you, then please tell me scientifically why not. If it’s because it’s not as developed as us, then would you say that a severely mentally retarded person isn’t a human? > You claim it can’t feel pain. As stated above, by week 12 it most certainly feel pain, and it’s not difficult to figure out, that this doesn’t suddenly happen all at once, so it’s safe to say that it can feel pain before that, although to a lesser degree the further back in time you go. > My belief that an unborn child is a human life isn’t based on faith or religion, it’s based on the scientific facts I’ve laid out before you and the other pro-choicers. I still have yet to hear from you, or any one else, a solid foundation behind the claims of “It’s not a human.” Your insufferable little glurge link presupposes it’s own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/152 "2004-12-16T00:24:34Z")
A frog has a nervous system and a brain. A frog can feel pain. A frog is not a person. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/153 "2004-12-16T00:38:41Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your insufferable little glurge link presupposes it’s own conclusions. It is a Right to Life site, so it has a pro life slant, but the facts given are just that, facts. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/154 "2004-12-16T00:42:20Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > A frog has a nervous system and a brain. A frog can feel pain. A frog is not a person. You’ve already made that point. What I’m asking, for the third time now, is when does somebody become a person? You have consistantly faild to answer that. Pointing out that frog isn’t a person does not prove that an unborn child also isn’t a person. It also doesn’t answer the question. I’ve given my beliefs, I’ve given what I use to back them up. I hope that someone on the pro-choice side can do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/155 "2004-12-16T01:15:36Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > You’ve already made that point. What I’m asking, for the third time now, is when does somebody become a person? > You have consistantly faild to answer that. Pointing out that frog isn’t a person does not prove that an unborn child also isn’t a person. It also doesn’t answer the question. > I’ve given my beliefs, I’ve given what I use to back them up. I hope that someone on the pro-choice side can do the same. I did answer the question. I said when it doesn’t live in somebody’s stomach. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/156 "2004-12-16T01:16:43Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > It is a Right to Life site, so it has a pro life slant, but the facts given are just that, facts. The facts do not impress me and the language is completely self-serving. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/157 "2004-12-16T01:20:09Z")
> [@Master Control](#): > > You’ve already made that point. What I’m asking, for the third time now, is when does somebody become a person? Don’t know if this will help or answer what you’re looking for, but my definition is when that baby transforms to viable outside the womb and sentient. Up until then, in my view, although they’re infinitely more than this crude term implies, they’re basically parasitic. I don’t really feel that way, but that’s the best thing I can think of to use to describe it and why I, personally, think it doesn’t actually constitute a human in the classical sense lest it passes the above point. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/158 "2004-12-16T01:20:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I did answer the question. I said when it doesn’t live in somebody’s stomach. And what is the basis for this? ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/159 "2004-12-16T01:22:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The facts do not impress me and the language is completely self-serving. Facts are facts, whether you’re impressed or not. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755/160 "2004-12-16T01:24:10Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Don’t know if this will help or answer what you’re looking for, but my definition is when that baby transforms to viable outside the womb and sentient. Up until then, in my view, although they’re infinitely more than this crude term implies, they’re basically parasitic. I don’t really feel that way, but that’s the best thing I can think of to use to describe it and why I, personally, think it doesn’t actually constitute a human in the classical sense lest it passes the above point. So, once out of the womb the baby magically transforms into a sentient human being? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prolifers-in-what-situation-is-it-morally-acceptable-for-a-woman-to-abort-pregnancy/279755.md?page=9)