# Pronounce 'cum laude' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858 "2011-06-17T16:46:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![andix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@andix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andix)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/21 "2011-06-18T20:34:59Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > This is full of errors. First of all, you’re mistaken about **lauda**. I think you might be misled by Italian: in my Italian dictionary, **lauda** is given as an older form of **lode**. Not all old-fashioned Italian is Latin! That, you’re right and I should have researched.It is “laus” and not “lauda.” So apologies. **BUT.** As far as pronunciation goes, **unless one is a NATIVE speaker of ANY Romantic language** one should refrain from estimating correct pronunciation from dictionaries, books and phonetic alphabet tables. Latin is Latin and of course not Italian, but that doesn’t make it pronounceable in different ways just because some books say so. I do not remember ever having heard of different _ways_ of speaking Latin, but just twisting it by different speakers of other languages. Back to pronunciation matters, there’s a big load of things English speakers pronounce differently from Romantic speakers. And unless one dedicates his or her life to properly pronouncing Latin, there will always be a difference in pronouncing “laudae” with a sharp “e” (as in th **E** re) at the end, like a Romantic speaker, versus “lau-DUH” like an English speaker. For instance, English speakers will pronounce “ce” at first sight just like “see” whereas Romantic speakers will pronounce “ce” as in “tsch-AY”. “R” will never be pronounced the same in Italian vs. English (just watch an Italian movie that’s not been dubbed.) A simple matter of wiring the brain when language and symbol associations are learned in early childhood and primary school. And a VERY hard thing to undo or re-wire differently. Sorry for being unable to make more sense than this. My thinking is better in Romanian (my native language) rather than English, and we’re already in the realm of ‘finesses’ here. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/22 "2011-06-18T21:43:50Z")
**andix** , I think you are missing a crucial point. Latin was a living language for a thousand years, and indeed remains alive in Romanian, Italian, etc. It didn’t suddenly shift, but changed gradually. We know about many of these changes (see the example of _novum caelum_ above). A modern person speaking Latin may choose to emulate a speaker from Julius Caesar’s time, or Saint Augustine’s, or Erasmus’s. Each of those men was a native speaker of Latin,\* so you can’t say they pronounced it wrong. And yet they pronounced it differently. Being a native speaker of a Romance language doesn’t make your Classical Latin pronunciations any more authentic. It may give you a leg up on vocabulary and grammar, but it’s still a language to be learned. If you learned Old English, your pronunciation could easily be better than mine, and I’m a native speaker of English. [\*It probably wasn’t Erasmus’s first language, but he probably learned it young enough and with enough fluency that you can count him.] ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/23 "2011-06-18T23:35:29Z")
Is it “cum laude” or “cum laudae”? Because I’d pronounce them differently. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/24 "2011-06-19T01:05:29Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Is it “cum laude” or “cum laudae”? Because I’d pronounce them differently. The former. \*_Laudae_ would be the nominative plural or genitive or dative singular of a noun \*_lauda_ – which is an Italian word, not a Latin one (_pace_ **Andix** ). As **Dr Drake** notes, the forms used in degrees derive from the ablative of _laus_. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/25 "2011-06-19T02:19:38Z")
My brother graduated summa cum laude. My sister graduated magna cum laude. I graduated. Thanky, Lawdy! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/26 "2011-06-20T06:26:24Z")
Here’s what I remember from my high school Latin (four years of it): _Cum_ is not pronounced like “come” nor to rhyme with “broom.” The **u** is pronounced like the **u** in “put.” The **au** in _laude_ is pronounced essentially like the **ow** in “down.” The **e** at the end is halfway between the **e** in “get” and the half-long **e** in the stereotypical Canadian “eh?”. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/27 "2011-06-20T07:54:27Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > _Cum_ is not pronounced like “come” nor to rhyme with “broom.” The **u** is pronounced like the **u** in “put.” I agree with you that “cum” rhymes with “broom” (or “room” or “doom” or “boom”). But if you think that’s the same vowel as “put”, you must be speaking a different dialect of English than me. “Put” rhymes with “foot” or “soot”. If it had the same vowel sound as “broom”, then it would rhyme with “boot”, “toot”, “moot”, “root”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/28 "2011-06-20T10:34:54Z")
> [@andix](#): > > For instance, English speakers will pronounce “ce” at first sight just like “see” whereas Romantic speakers will pronounce “ce” as in “tsch-AY”. I’d pronounce the string “ce” as [tʃe] if I perceive it as being part of an Italian (or, I suppose, Romanian) word. But “ce” is also a French word (meaning “this” in the adjectival sense, e.g. “ce livre” = “this book”), pronounced [sə]. And in Spanish it’d be pronounced yet again differently, probably something like [se]. There isn’t one spelling convention for all Romance languages (yes, by the way, it’s “Romance”, not “Romantic”). From what I can see Romanian spelling is similar to Italian, but that’s probably because when Romania adopted the Latin alphabet in the 19th century, linguists consciously based the new spelling on Italian. Other Romance languages have developed in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Kataskopo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aca169/32.png) [@Kataskopo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kataskopo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/29 "2011-06-20T10:53:33Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’d pronounce the string “ce” as [tʃe] if I perceive it as being part of an Italian (or, I suppose, Romanian) word. But “ce” is also a French word (meaning “this” in the adjectival sense, e.g. “ce livre” = “this book”), pronounced [sə]. And in Spanish it’d be pronounced yet again differently, probably something like [se]. > > There isn’t one spelling convention for all Romance languages (yes, by the way, it’s “Romance”, not “Romantic”). From what I can see Romanian spelling is similar to Italian, but that’s probably because when Romania adopted the Latin alphabet in the 19th century, linguists consciously based the new spelling on Italian. Other Romance languages have developed in different ways. Exactly. I am a native spanish speaker and pronounce the “ce” as in “sermon”. Actually, I may be wrong, but whenever I hear Latin, I think the pronunciation sounds a lot like in spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/30 "2011-06-20T12:48:36Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I agree with you that “cum” rhymes with “broom” (or “room” or “doom” or “boom”). Perhaps I wasn’t clear or you misread – we **disagree** , as I maintain that “cum” does NOT rhyme with “broom” or “room” or “doom” etc. > [@](#): > > But if you think that’s the same vowel as “put”, you must be speaking a different dialect of English than me. “Put” rhymes with “foot” or “soot”. If it had the same vowel sound as “broom”, then it would rhyme with “boot”, “toot”, “moot”, “root”, etc. No, we pronounce “put” and “foot” and “soot” etc. the same way, and that’s the sound I remember for the **u** in “cum.” I am (mis?)remembering “cum” to have a Latin short **u**. I would agree that the Latin long **u** is pronounced like “broom” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/31 "2011-06-20T13:15:35Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > Perhaps I wasn’t clear or you misread – we **disagree** , as I maintain that “cum” does NOT rhyme with “broom” or “room” or “doom” etc. > > No, we pronounce “put” and “foot” and “soot” etc. the same way, and that’s the sound I remember for the **u** in “cum.” > > I am (mis?)remembering “cum” to have a Latin short **u**. I would agree that the Latin long **u** is pronounced like “broom” etc. I, too, learned to pronounce “cum” like “foot” or “soot,” but it is not strictly correct for Classical Latin. The trouble is, the Classical system of distinguishing vowel length purely by length is _hard_ for English speakers. None of the English options (/ə, ʌ, ʊ/) really would have sounded right for Caesar. He probably would have distinguished only /u/ and /uː/. In other words, “cum” and “vacuum” would have had exactly the same sound, just held longer in the latter word. Think about the following sentence: “Hand me the broom, Hortense. No, not the rake, the _ **broom** _.” The first broom is probably more like “cum,” the second like Latin long **u**. (Only without getting louder and using nice pure Continental vowels.) ---
**Author:** ![Archeonomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Archeonomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archeonomist)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/32 "2011-06-20T20:18:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > “Magna,” as in “magna cum laude,” should be pronounced “mangna” in classical Laitn and nobody ever says it like that. Uh - “mangna”? I thought magna was pronounced “mahgnah” (the ah pronounced as the “aa” in aardvark) Whereforth that extra ‘n’? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/33 "2011-06-20T20:21:31Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > At least fifty a day. Talk about making Uranus sore. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/34 "2011-06-20T20:28:56Z")
Am I the only person who’s seen “Blazing Saddles” (and who knows who Cleavon Little is)? Oh, laude laud, he desperate! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/35 "2011-06-20T20:33:06Z")
> [@arnesw](#): > > Uh - “mangna”? I thought magna was pronounced “mahgnah” (the ah pronounced as the “aa” in aardvark) > > Whereforth that extra ‘n’? Looking into it now, it seems that I’m repeating a view that hasn’t been widely held for 100 years. From Lewis & Short’s Latin dictionary under “N”; “Before the guttural letters a medial n receives the sound of Greek γ before gutturals, wherefore, in early times, viz., by Attius, we have also g written for n: Agchises, agceps, aggulus, aggens, agguilla, iggerunt, etc.” Also called the n adulterinum. So we know N + G = NG + G (as in English “finger”). Some people also used to think G+N was NG + N (“Sing now”), including my Latin teacher, but the evidence is really only hypothetical. So mahg-na it is. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/36 "2011-06-20T21:03:25Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Talk about making Uranus sore. Is Uranus responsible for the movement of the planets? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/37 "2011-06-20T21:36:06Z")
“With honors.” ? ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/38 "2011-06-22T14:32:38Z")
I heard about the gay astronaut who went to Uranus ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/39 "2011-06-22T16:25:45Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Looking into it now, it seems that I’m repeating a view that hasn’t been widely held for 100 years. > > From Lewis & Short’s Latin dictionary under “N”; “Before the guttural letters a medial n receives the sound of Greek γ before gutturals, wherefore, in early times, viz., by Attius, we have also g written for n: Agchises, agceps, aggulus, aggens, agguilla, iggerunt, etc.” Also called the n adulterinum. > > So we know N + G = NG + G (as in English “finger”). Some people also used to think G+N was NG + N (“Sing now”), including my Latin teacher, but the evidence is really only hypothetical. So mahg-na it is. I have come to the provisional conclusion that the advice that “gn” is pronounced “ngn” was just a way of talking about getting to that phoneme – the nasalized voiced velar – that English speakers use but aren’t generally aware of. I also wonder whether this can be tied to the notion, now less fashionable as it seems, that the vowel is always long before _gn_, because both voicing and nasalization on a following consonant will tend to effectively lengthen the vowel by assimilation. In practice, I find that I am almost forced to elevate the vowel quality as well, from an _uh_ to an _ah_. It’s more natural to say _uh_ before a mere _g_. The thing is, even with the things we know to a fair degree of accuracy, there is a lot of wiggle room, and you get disparate descriptions of how the same sounds are to be reproduced, even adjusting for whether or not the person doing the describing is British, or what the fashion was in philology the year the book was written. Except for known diphthongs, you have to dig deep to see anything said about how the order in which the letters fall affect the sounds they make – no beginner’s guide says a damned thing about how to handle these Greek words. There also seems to be little acknowledgement of inherent ambiguities, such as when exactly _i_ is a vowel, a consonant, a hidden double-consonant or a single consonant that adds a hidden vowel to create a diphthong in the previous syllable. But of course this is fussing about degrees of variance in enunciation that we might not even notice in English. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858/40 "2011-06-23T00:56:25Z")
So gn doesn’t make [ɲ] as I was taught in singers’ Latin (i.e. Church or liturgical Latin)? I’ve always said something close to MAHN-nyuh [maːɲa]. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-cum-laude/585858.md?page=3)