# Pronounce "voir dire" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 2, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505 "2011-05-02T19:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/41 "2011-05-03T16:35:34Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That definition – while still current in some circles colloquially – is obsolete and represents a misunderstanding of how human language works. > > All “standard” languages are dialects. In fact, a more accurate term is “standardized dialect.” Way to go to empty a word of its meaning, and then use it profusely. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/42 "2011-05-03T16:39:43Z")
Yeah, it’s so awful that sometimes when what we think we know turns out to be wrong, it is reflected in a change in terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/43 "2011-05-03T16:44:16Z")
Taken from wiki ( [Dialect - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect) ) > [@](#): > > The term dialect (from the Greek Language word dialektos, Διάλεκτος) is used in two distinct ways, even by linguists. One usage refers to a variety of a language that is a characteristic of a particular group of the language’s speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.[2] A dialect that is associated with a particular social class can be termed a sociolect; a regional dialect may be termed a regiolect or topolect. The other usage refers to a language socially subordinate to a regional or national standard language, often historically cognate to the standard, but not a variety of it or in any other sense derived from it[citation needed]. This more precise usage enables distinguishing between varieties of a language, such as the French spoken in Nice, France, and local languages distinct from the superordinate language, e.g. Nissart, the traditional native Romance language of Nice, known in French as Niçard Apparently, the crowd of obsolete linguists to which I belong is a little bit more than a rear guard. Parisian French is something used by Quebecois and wouldnt mean jack to any other French speaker, whatever their country. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/44 "2011-05-03T16:56:27Z")
When you mix lawyers, French (or Latin), and places in the US where people talk funny anyway, you can get some strange results. I know lawyers in Texas that pronounce “Daubert” (a famous case) like Dobbert. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/45 "2011-05-03T17:06:09Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Taken from wiki ( [Dialect - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect) ) > > Apparently, the crowd of obsolete linguists to which I belong is a little bit more than a rear guard. You realize that the definition you highlighted is the one _I’m_ using? You’re using the “subordinate” definition, mentioned in the quote as the “other usage.” Standard French is “a variety of [the French] language that is a characteristic of a particular group of the language’s speakers,” in this case, not one defined by “regional speech patterns,” but rather “by other factors, such as social class.” In this case, the “other factors” are similar to those of other standardized dialects, such as institutional and governmental sanction. > [@](#): > > Parisian French is something used by Quebecois and wouldnt mean jack to any other French speaker, whatever their country. And, yet, you and many other participants here were easily able to understand what was meant by “Parisian French.” Are you suggesting that terms common to Quebecois should be avoided on this board? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/46 "2011-05-03T17:58:30Z")
**Capitaine Zombie** , I’m not sure what you’re going on about here and I would suggest this isn’t the thread for it, but there certainly is a Parisian dialect of French. Defined by _how Parisians speak French_. With a wide variety of language registers (the Parisian French you speak at work, the Parisian French you speak with your friends at the bar, the Parisian French of the French media, etc.) some of which are more “standard” or international than others. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/47 "2011-05-03T18:48:53Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > **Capitaine Zombie** , I’m not sure what you’re going on about here and I would suggest this isn’t the thread for it Simply that there seems to be a big confusion here between Metropole French and Parisian French (the latter having probably died in the first part of the XXth century). > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > there certainly is a Parisian dialect of French. Defined by _how Parisians speak French_ There are no Parisian dialects, that is a specific branch of French used only in Paris, with its specific colloquialisms. At least, not what people are refering to here as Parisian accent. If you’re looking for dialects in Paris, try the various local slangs. But I doubt that people talking about having a Parisian accent start their sentences with “Wesh wesh” or the like. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > With a wide variety of language registers (the Parisian French you speak at work, the Parisian French you speak with your friends at the bar, the Parisian French of the French media, etc.) some of which are more “standard” or international than others The French refered to as"Parisian French" is standard French, it is the one taught in most French classes around the world. I happened for the first time upon the term “Parisian French” on this board, a few weeks ago. And after checking a bit on the net, it seems to me that it is mainly used by North Americans French speakers, to differentiate between their version and the one commonly used in France. There’s no problem with that, but the term is improper. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > **Capitaine Zombie** , I’m not sure what you’re going on about here and I would suggest this isn’t the thread for it If you’re saying that this thread has been seriously derailed, I agree, and I’ll leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/48 "2011-05-03T18:54:56Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And after checking a bit on the net, it seems to me that it is mainly used by North Americans French speakers, to differentiate between their version and the one commonly used in France. There’s no problem with that, but the term is improper. I fail to see how a descriptive term that is both accurate and understood can be labeled as “improper.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/49 "2011-05-03T19:10:53Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I happened for the first time upon the term “Parisian French” on this board, a few weeks ago. And after checking a bit on the net, it seems to me that it is mainly used by North Americans French speakers, to differentiate between their version and the one commonly used in France. We call it _français de France_, not Parisian French. But you seem to be arguing that to you “Parisian French” is a historical dialect, not the current variant or dialect of French spoken in Paris. (And don’t do me this “it’s not a dialect, it’s French As She Is To Be Spoke” thing. :p) This may be a personal preference of yours, but “Parisian French” is quite descriptive and unambiguous to the rest of us. If we want to speak of historical Parisian dialects, we’ll be more precise. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/50 "2011-05-03T19:19:39Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > We call it _français de France_, not Parisian French. But you seem to be arguing that to you “Parisian French” is a historical dialect, not the current variant or dialect of French spoken in Paris. (And don’t do me this “it’s not a dialect, it’s French As She Is To Be Spoke” thing. :p) This may be a personal preference of yours, but “Parisian French” is quite descriptive and unambiguous to the rest of us. If we want to speak of historical Parisian dialects, we’ll be more precise. But refering to it as Parisian is misleading: 1)there were Parisian dialects. If you want a taste of it, just listen to Edih Piaf, _that_ is Parisian (I’m not specifically adressing you here, **Hypnagogic Jerk** , I bet you already knew it) 2)why call it Parisian, when it is spoken in most places in France? Basically, it’s like calling standard English “the Cockney accent”. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/51 "2011-05-03T20:03:39Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > /[Vwauh deer](http://translate.google.com/?hl=en#auto%7Cfr%7Csee%20say)/ This is the only pronunciation I’ve ever heard (ftr, I’ve only heard it on tv shows). I’m surprised to see the first “r” in other people’s examples, since I only hear at “r” at the very end. 'course, if I ever heard a NH lawyer say it, it’d probably be Vwauh deeyah 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/52 "2011-05-03T20:11:23Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > This is the only pronunciation I’ve ever heard (ftr, I’ve only heard it on tv shows). I’m surprised to see the first “r” in other people’s examples, since I only hear at “r” at the very end. 'course, if I ever heard a NH lawyer say it, it’d probably be Vwauh deeyah 😃 In My Cousin Vinny the prosecuting atty pronounced it “wahdi” of course that was his acting Alabama accent. ---
**Author:** ![baylorlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@baylorlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baylorlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/53 "2011-06-08T19:06:13Z")
You are being a pretentious lawyer. Seriously though, the term is pronounced differently in different parts of the country, particularly Texas. We pronounce it “vore dyer.” My cousin at NYU pronounces it the French way. My guess is that your colleague is from Texas. We are aware of how the rest of the country pronounces it, but this is just the way we do it down here. Hope this helps! ---
**Author:** ![baylorlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@baylorlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baylorlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/54 "2011-06-08T19:13:59Z")
Some might place you in the “ain’t too bright” category as well, based on your response. Texans know how the rest of the country pronounces voir dire, we are aware that we say it differently, and we do it because that’s the way we’ve always done it. I would love for you to come to Texas and hear Joe Jamail, Leon Jawaroski, or Walter Humphrey say “vore dyer” and still try to put them in the “ain’t too bright category.” ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/55 "2011-06-08T19:26:26Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Strictly speaking, “French”, like most other languages, is a family of dialects. While the prestige dialect, Parisian French, uses the uvular /ʁ/, many others, such as Quebecois, do indeed use the trilled /r/. Another difference between the Google Translate pronunciation (which allows me to trot out my own and only bit of knowledge about linguistics, but I might still mess it up) is that the Québec accent/dialect uses the [voiceless alveolar affricate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_affricate) …meaning the word “dire” would have a starting sound more like “ts” or “dz” rather than a hard d as in “dog”. So instead of “deer” I’d say “dzeer” (accepting for the sake of description that the “i” sound is similar to “ee”, which it isn’t, as **Kobal2** explained). Someone else will be along shortly to explain that much better than I can! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/56 "2011-06-09T04:22:46Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > /[Vwauh deer](http://translate.google.com/?hl=en#auto%7Cfr%7Csee%20say)/ That’s how I say it. It has something to do with Sharia Law, whatever that is. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/57 "2011-06-09T08:30:17Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > But referring to it as Parisian is misleading: > 1)there were Parisian dialects. If you want a taste of it, just listen to Edith Piaf, _that_ is Parisian". I disagree. Standard French is the dialect of the Oil language that used to be spoken in the Paris/Orleans area. It’s equivalent to, say, Picard, Gallo, etc… in other areas of northern France. What you’re thinking about when mentioning Piaf (or the well known “Atmosphere? Est-ce que j’ai une gueule d’athmosphere?” in “Hotel du Nord”) is the worker-class way of speaking (standard French) in Paris, equivalent to the British cockney, that indeed disappeared but wasn’t a dialect, more like an accent with some slang thrown in. A different dialect would use different words, not simply pronounce them with a somewhat different inflexion. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505/58 "2011-06-09T14:18:06Z")
> [@baylorlaw](#): > > You are being a pretentious lawyer. > [@baylorlaw](#): > > Some might place you in the “ain’t too bright” category as well, based on your response. [Moderator Note] **baylorlaw** , insults are not permitted in GQ. Since you are new here, and these are pretty mild, I am not making this an official warning. However, don’t do this again. Colibri General Questions Moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounce-voir-dire/580505.md?page=2)