# Pronounciations that grate: Is it because I'm old? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 19, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645 "2012-06-19T14:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/121 "2012-06-22T20:17:08Z")
> [@LegsAkimbo](#): > > I’m extremely fussy about words myself, so I can relate to all this. It used to drive me nuts when people would misuse “decimate,” which means to reduce by 1/10 (which is really not that bad a loss). Well, then I was emailing a correction to someone and was going to quote the dictionary and discovered that the definition has been changed–probably by popular usage–to mean what everyone intends when they say it. Argh, when did that happen?? So now I try not to grind my teeth when I hear that word used to describe massive destruction. In the 17th century, apparently. According to [this](http://ask.metafilter.com/188479/Dont-decimate-me-bro) the first attested usage of the “destroy a large portion of” meaning was in 1663: > [@](#): > > \*All of these critics have learned the etymology of decimate, but none of them have bothered to examine its history and use in English. … decimate has seldom meant “to destroy every tenth man” in English, and then only in historical references. > > Aside from a few technical uses, decimate has had three main applications in English. The first, attested since 1600, refers to the Roman disciplinary procedure… The second application, attested from 1659, refers to a ten percent tax … but it has no current use. > > The third, first attested in 1663, … is the only sense of the word that has continued to thrive in English… Although a few commentators still cling to the Latin … most recent usage books recognize that the Latin etymology does not rule the English word.\* The [Online Etymology Dictionary](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=decimate) agrees with the 1663 date (well the decard, anyway). However, it says: > [@](#): > > _The word has been used (incorrectly, to the irritation of pedants) since 1660s for “destroy a large portion of.”_ This apparently agrees with your view, but I find it a bit silly for a site that tries to be some form of authority on English etymology to refer to _any_ word being “misused” in the same way for 350 years. [Dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/decimate) says this meaning developed in the 19th century. > [@LegsAkimbo](#): > > I wish more people knew when to use “less” and “fewer.” I disagree. Less people should know the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/122 "2012-06-22T20:24:27Z")
Don’t waste your time arguing with a precriptivist. It’s a waste of your time, and it bothers the prescriptivist. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/123 "2012-06-22T20:46:52Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I’ll be snacking on my hors d’oeuvres awaiting an answer. Ha! I never even noticed that! Okay, then. I guess, given that, I can live with Farve. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/124 "2012-06-22T21:39:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So, a pronunciation that I do use, which doesn’t change the order of letters is “not much differen[t]” from a pronunciation that I _don’t_ use, which does change the order? I’m not buying it. No, that isn’t what I said. I was pointing out that one person could say they pronounced the letters out of order - wendz-day - and another person could say they pronounced them in order with a silent letter - wenz-day. And both of them would essentially be pronouncing the word the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/125 "2012-06-22T21:43:20Z")
So as long as the degree of difference is one phoneme, the pronunciation is the same, for all intents and purposes? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/126 "2012-06-22T22:40:35Z")
> [@Orionizer](#): > > Not really words, but I can’t STAND it when people are talking and they raise their voice at the end of a statement like it’s a question… > > I first noticed this with Allison Hannigan (sp?) on Buffy and now, I notice a LOT of younger people doing it. > > It’s a STATEMENT, not a fucking QUESTION! It apparently goes back a long way. It fell out of use and then rose again on the West Coast (and Australia, among other places). Elizabeth Brayer’s _George Eastman: A Biography_ talks about “[Eastman’s] Upstate New York accent, (nasal, twangy, harsh-voweled, ending each sentence on the up-beat as if asking a question)…” Regionalisms and dialects. You don’t have to like them. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/127 "2012-06-22T23:04:16Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > So as long as the degree of difference is one phoneme, the pronunciation is the same, for all intents and purposes? No, the point is that /d/ is not phonemic in that position, as its absence does not change the meaning of the word. Consonant clusters often end up with the least significant phoneme being made silent. And there is no pronunciation difference between a word with a silent /d/ and the same word without that silent letter. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/128 "2012-06-22T23:06:54Z")
> [@Orionizer](#): > > Not really words, but I can’t STAND it when people are talking and they raise their voice at the end of a statement like it’s a question… > > I first noticed this with Allison Hannigan (sp?) on Buffy and now, I notice a LOT of younger people doing it. > > It’s a STATEMENT, not a fucking QUESTION! But Willow doesn’t sound like she’s asking a question. There are uptalkers who do, and I agree they are annoying, but Willow is just insecure. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/129 "2012-06-23T00:01:54Z")
> [@HighFructose](#): > > While we’re on it, it’s WenzDAY, old-timers, not WenzDEE. Why “old-timers”; is this something you’ve only heard old people say? It bugs me a little, too, but I always assumed it was characteristic of a rural western-Midwestern accent, e.g. Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/130 "2012-06-23T00:36:55Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Why “old-timers”; is this something you’ve only heard old people say? It bugs me a little, too, but I always assumed it was characteristic of a rural western-Midwestern accent, e.g. Kansas. For me, as a denizen of L.A., they’re kind of the same thing. When I drove taxi, the seniors of Mid-Wilshire and Fairfax who used the coupons from LADOT to pay fare for getting to the supermarkets were almost always from the Midwest. They were always telling me about the old L.A. they found when they first moved out, and pronouncing things that way. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/131 "2012-06-23T00:40:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So, a pronunciation that I do use, which doesn’t change the order of letters. . . Just a nitpick: A pronunciation doesn’t change the order of the letters. It changes the order of the sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/132 "2012-06-23T00:57:48Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > So as long as the degree of difference is one phoneme, the pronunciation is the same, for all intents and purposes? Essentially, yes, in this particular combination of phonemes. Try to pronounce wenz-day and wendz-day distinctly from each other. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/133 "2012-06-23T01:22:13Z")
I have a 1979 edition print dictionary (Scott, Forseman Advanced) and the first pronunciation listed for every day of the week is -dee, not -day. Get a dictionary from the '60s, and it may not have the second (-day) pronunciation. I blame Alton Brown and the Food Network’s lack of fact checking (looking up pronunciations) for making people think plantain’s second syllable rhymes with rain and the x in astaxanthin isn’t pronounced like a z. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/134 "2012-06-23T01:25:45Z")
This is an extremely silly argument. As I said, you have an example in Weddenzday. It’s fatuous to say that Wenzday has a swapped letter because you can’t tell the difference between Wenzday and Wendzday. All that means is that Wendzday doesn’t exist in our dialect. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/135 "2012-06-23T02:29:40Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > I have a 1979 edition print dictionary (Scott, Forseman Advanced) and the first pronunciation listed for every day of the week is -dee, not -day. I don’t know what guidelines that dictionary has, but Merriam-Webster has for years stated that the first pronunciation in their dictionary is not to be considered the “preferred” pronunciation–just that in a list, something _has_ to come first. I think they implicitly show “alternate” pronunciations with _also_, or mark it with an obelus to indicate that some people frown on it. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/136 "2012-06-23T03:44:52Z")
I was just telling HighFructose that Sundee - Saturdee were documented proper pronunciations. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/137 "2012-06-23T04:07:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is an extremely silly argument. As I said, you have an example in Weddenzday. It’s fatuous to say that Wenzday has a swapped letter because you can’t tell the difference between Wenzday and Wendzday. All that means is that Wendzday doesn’t exist in our dialect. Your argument seems to be that my way is identical to his way but my way is right and his way is wrong. If there’s no difference between Wenzday and Wendzday, how do you know it’s Wendzday that doesn’t exist? Maybe Wenzday doesn’t exist and you’ve been pronouncing it Wendzday all these years without realizing it. Seems unlikely, but you’re claiming other people are somehow pronouncing a different word then what they think they are. Personally, I think some people think they’re pronouncing Wenzday and some people think they’re pronouncing Wendzday. And the two pronunciations end up being indistinguishable from each other. I do agree with you that it’s an extremely silly argument. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/138 "2012-06-23T04:17:24Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > I blame Alton Brown and the Food Network’s lack of fact checking (looking up pronunciations) for making people think plantain’s second syllable rhymes with rain and the x in astaxanthin isn’t pronounced like a z. Huh. You learn something new every day (and it’s ten minutes past midnight where I’m at, so I got it out of the way early today). I’ve been pronouncing plantains wrong all these years (fortunately it’s not a word I say out loud very often so it’s been mostly a mental error). Fortunately, I had never heard of the word astaxanthin before today, so I’m guilt-free on that one. And having now learned not only that astaxanthin is pronounced with a z but also that it’s a chemical compound which gives some plants and animals a reddish color and is an antioxidant, I’m all set for Sunday as well and now my brain can take the weekend off. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/139 "2012-06-23T04:54:47Z")
Asta- is a prefix hooked onto the root word xanthin, hence the z sound. I just figured if “Good Eats” was going to be all sciencey, they could at least look up some of the science words. Oligosaccharide and arthropod are two others they butchered. (pun not intended, but maybe appropriate) ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/140 "2012-06-23T05:37:14Z")
Two of my pet peeves: “lugxury” for luxury; and “egxit” for exit. Another thing, which may be a regionalism and/or a Britishism; taking words that end in -a and making them end in -ar. For instance, idea becomes “idear”, and peninsula becomes “peninsular.” And one of the oddest of all–I’ve heard one particular person on the radio who seemingly cannot pronounce “hurricane” to save his life. He says “hurricun.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645.md?page=8)