# Pronounciations that grate: Is it because I'm old? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 19, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645 "2012-06-19T14:32:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/161 "2012-06-23T15:01:53Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > Why get the letters mixed up? It’s not the letters that are getting mixed up. It’s the sounds. The spelling of a word doesn’t change just because of some variations in its pronunciation. It’s perfectly natural for the the pronunciation of a language to change over time, especially with languages that are connected to populations in flux and transition. The fact that English spelling hasn’t changed much to accommodate those changes in pronunciation doesn’t mean that the pronunciation changes haven’t occurred. That has more to do with the historical lack of an “official” academy as some other languages have. Every time one of these threads comes up, people run to their dictionaries to “prove” that their version of a pronunciation is “correct” (or that someone else is “not correct”). But the way we spell a language is not the determinant of how we speak it. Speech has a natural life which is independent of orthography. And not every dictionary can be expected to completely reflect every manifestation of the way a language is pronounced. It seems that [metathesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_(linguistics)) is the most common motivation for threads like this here–over and over again. Yet, as the Wiki articles explains, it’s a natural aspect of all language (and learning to speak a language), and it has nothing to do with the way we spell words. Sometimes metathesis results in changes of pronunciation that eventually become standard. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/162 "2012-06-23T15:13:22Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > “Incorrect” then, Mr Pedantic. > > No it’s not, which is mine. Where are you getting that it is? I’m getting it from Britain. If you want evidence: [http://www.forvo.com/word/military/#en](http://www.forvo.com/word/military/#en) [http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/military\_1](http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/military_1) There is even a [whole section](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_pronunciation_differences#-ary_-ery_-ory_-bury.2C_-berry.2C_-mony) about it on Wikipedia. And I wasn’t being pedantic, I just didn’t get why you seemed so sure it’s incorrect when it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/163 "2012-06-23T15:23:47Z")
I stand corrected; thanks. It still sounds retarded. 😉 Do brits always say -tary as “tree?” ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/164 "2012-06-23T15:55:15Z")
Mostly, I believe. I think the Wikipedia link I gave has more examples and probably better explanation than I can give. It’s also true for similar sounds (like “strawberry” or “laboratory”). We generally say “strawbree” (or maybe “strawbuhree”) and “laboratory” is quite different - “la-BORA-tree”. It’s also true for “Canterbury” (“Canterbree”). Although “circulatory” is “circulate-uh-ree”. Of course not everyone pronounces them like that. Some people do pronounce “military” like Americans. I’m not sure whether that’s considered incorrect or simply a secondary pronunciation. My flatmate does it, but I think he thinks “militree” is just a lazy pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Bilbo1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bilbo1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bilbo1967)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/165 "2012-06-23T17:16:41Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Well that’s me told then! Yep, and don’t you forget it! Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/166 "2012-06-23T18:16:39Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > For me, as a denizen of L.A., they’re kind of the same thing. When I drove taxi, the seniors of Mid-Wilshire and Fairfax who used the coupons from LADOT to pay fare for getting to the supermarkets were almost always from the Midwest. They were always telling me about the old L.A. they found when they first moved out, and pronouncing things that way. I bet they also would have pronounced the city’s name as Los Angle-eez; from having heard a lot of archived radio broadcasts from around 1950 it seems almost to have been the media standard back then. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/167 "2012-06-23T18:29:50Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > It seems that [metathesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_(linguistics)) is the most common motivation for threads like this here–over and over again. Yet, as the Wiki articles explains, it’s a natural aspect of all language (and learning to speak a language), and it has nothing to do with the way we spell words. > > Sometimes metathesis results in changes of pronunciation that eventually become standard. In the history of English, this has been particularly true with /r/ followed by a vowel. Geoffrey Chaucer still wrote _brid_ and _thrid_ for “bird” and “third”. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/168 "2012-06-23T19:02:26Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I bet they also would have pronounced the city’s name as Los Angle-eez; And you would win that bet hands down–that’s almost always how they pronounced it! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/169 "2012-06-23T19:07:52Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > The Southern habit of (mis)pronouncing the -ture in words such as furniture and literature as “-tyoor” instead of “-chur” still irritates me after nearly 30 years of living here. > [@oreally](#): > > I’ve lived here almost as long. I’ve yet to hear that. You in the backwoods there boy? No, I’ve heard it also. To give an example, I’ve heard [J. Rufus Fears](http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/professors/professor_detail.aspx?pid=165), who is obviously not a backwoods bumpkin, pronounce literature with a t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/170 "2012-06-23T19:13:18Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > To me the American pronunciation of “military” sounds nasty. As you said yourself, you don’t always pronounce every letter and “mili-terry” sounds like you all just look at the word and pronounce it wrong because that’s how it’s spelt. > > In fact I could come up with hundreds of American pronunciations that I dislike, but I take this thread to be more about wrong (or non-standard) pronunciations rather than things that are correct - just not where you come from. What grates to me are commercials for the Jaguar sports car. Here in America we pronounce it jag-war. But the announcer in the commercial uses the British pronunciation, jag-oo-ar. But I figure it’s a British car so that’s the correct way I suppose (although it’s named after an American animal). ---
**Author:** ![Bilbo1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bilbo1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bilbo1967)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/171 "2012-06-23T19:21:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What grates to me are commercials for the Jaguar sports car. Here in America we pronounce it jag-war. But the announcer in the commercial uses the British pronunciation, jag-oo-ar. But I figure it’s a British car so that’s the correct way I suppose (although it’s named after an American animal). Are you sure it’s not jag-yoo-ar? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/172 "2012-06-23T22:38:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > poem (which he pronounces poyim) That looks like a Russo-Yiddish dialect (cite: _The Education of H_Y_M_A_N K_A_P_L_A_N\* by Leo Rosten). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/173 "2012-06-24T01:28:24Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I maintain that “short-lived” is not a manifestation of “life,” but of “live.” While I don’t have a citation to refute this categorically, I think it unlikely. The referent of “short-lived” or “long-lived” **has** a long or short life respectively, just as a ruby-throated hummingbird has a ruby throat and a Galapagos blue-footed booby has blue feet. This is why I think believe that -_lived_ in long-lived more likely originated as some kind of oblique inflection of “life” in the singular. Strictly with regard to pronunciation, the short “i” “long-lived” seems more natural to me, though. ---
**Author:** ![oreally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ab992/32.png) [@oreally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oreally)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/174 "2012-06-24T20:45:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What grates to me are commercials for the Jaguar sports car. Here in America we pronounce it jag-war. ? I’ve never heard it spoken that way. It’s “jag-wire,” although the “i” isn’t as “long.” Sort of like an old Southern gent saying the word “wire.” ---
**Author:** ![impatien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@impatien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/impatien)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/175 "2012-06-24T22:55:16Z")
I can’t count the number of people who come into the library and ask for a liberry card–ticks me off to no end. Of course they’re only coming to the liberry to use the internet anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/176 "2012-06-25T02:28:03Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > This is a standing joke between me and my bf, who would rather die than say anything with the correct French pronunciation-MASSage, GEHRige, _Herb_- but can’t stand the FARV thing. We make a point of saying “FaaahvRRRRRRRa” in the most exagerrated faux French accent we can produce without coughing. There was an SCTV sketch that poked fun at Anglophones’ exaggerated pronunciation of “-re” endings in French. The cast were all supposed to be famous Impressionist painters, and at one point one of them, praising the work of another, says "your paintings will hang in the Louvr-rRRRRRGRGRRRRRRe. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/177 "2012-06-25T02:36:09Z")
C’mon, impatien, it’s spelled lyebury. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/178 "2012-06-25T04:59:28Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > ? I’ve never heard it spoken that way. It’s “jag-wire,” although the “i” isn’t as “long.” Sort of like an old Southern gent saying the word “wire.” That’s the pronunciation I’m talking about. Wahr might be the closest spelling. But I feel war is closer than wire. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/179 "2012-06-25T22:18:44Z")
> [@oreally](#): > > gasp > > racist! racist! _sirens blaring_ Call out the race card nazis, we gots us an execution to perform! > > 😉 What is wrong with you? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645/180 "2012-06-26T00:25:01Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Mostly, I believe. I think the Wikipedia link I gave has more examples and probably better explanation than I can give. > > It’s also true for similar sounds (like “strawberry” or “laboratory”). We generally say “strawbree” (or maybe “strawbuhree”) and “laboratory” is quite different - “la-BORA-tree”. It’s also true for “Canterbury” (“Canterbree”). Although “circulatory” is “circulate-uh-ree”. > > Of course not everyone pronounces them like that. Some people do pronounce “military” like Americans. I’m not sure whether that’s considered incorrect or simply a secondary pronunciation. My flatmate does it, but I think he thinks “militree” is just a lazy pronunciation. I heard the guys on “My Word” use the four-syllable pronunciation of “military” ( I think it was Dennis Norden), so it can’t be all that disfavored. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciations-that-grate-is-it-because-im-old/625645.md?page=10)