# Pronouncing "foreign language" words **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675 "2019-06-18T12:59:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/61 "2019-06-26T14:18:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What’s the “construct state”? I wondered the same ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_state)): > [@](#): > > In Afro-Asiatic languages, the first noun in a genitive phrase of a possessed noun followed by a possessor noun often takes on a special morphological form, which is termed the construct state (Latin status constructus). For example, in Hebrew, the word for “queen” standing alone is _malka_ מלכה, but when the word is possessed, as in the phrase “Queen of Sheba” (literally “Sheba’s Queen”), it becomes _malkat šəba_ מלכת שבא, in which _malkat_ is the construct state (possessed) form and _malka_ is the absolute (unpossessed) form. … Tel Aviv means approximately “Spring Hill” (‘spring’ the season, not the water feature). I find Romanizations of the Hebrew word for “hill” as _tell_ – specifically with two 'l’s. However, Tel Aviv (and the Biblical place name Tel Abib, same meaning) are invariably Romanized with one ‘l’. In Modern Hebrew, is there indeed a double ‘l’ (geminated ‘l’ for our linguists) in _tell_ and is it salient? Are _tel_ and _tell_ readily told apart at conversational speeds in speech? Or in this case, is the construct state of _tell_ (viz. _tel_) essentially of an orthographic convention? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/62 "2019-06-26T14:31:26Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Why the pronunciation of the first vowel in “Mary/Mari” changes in English depending on how the second vowel is pictured beats me; all I know is that it does. There’s other spelling stuff about English that I’ve eventually found out where it comes from, but not that particular detail. I don’t think there’s a real underlying difference for this beyond that “Mary” is a familiar proper noun to English speakers and has a rote-learned\*\* pronunciation available to mentally access immediately. “Mari”, on the other hand, can give pause due to the unfamiliar spelling. English speakers, keep in mind, may try to sound things out but it won’t be based on an ingrained sense of Romance-language phonetics. That is to say, an English speaker without experience in additional languages or in phonetics won’t automatically see the ‘a’ in “Mari” and map it mentally to IPA /a/ – the strict association of that letter with that vowel is not made in English speech. For the English-speaking monoglot, that association has to be learned explicitly. \*\* _as opposed to a pronunciation derivable from the spelling._ ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/63 "2019-06-26T15:09:00Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I wondered the same ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_state)): > > … > > Tel Aviv means approximately “Spring Hill” (‘spring’ the season, not the water feature). I find Romanizations of the Hebrew word for “hill” as _tell_ – specifically with two 'l’s. However, Tel Aviv (and the Biblical place name Tel Abib, same meaning) are invariably Romanized with one ‘l’. > > In Modern Hebrew, is there indeed a double ‘l’ (geminated ‘l’ for our linguists) in _tell_ and is it salient? Are _tel_ and _tell_ readily told apart at conversational speeds in speech? Or in this case, is the construct state of _tell_ (viz. _tel_) essentially of an orthographic convention? I checked a Modern Hebrew dictionary (Even Shoshan), and there is no gemination (or vowel change) in “tel” in either the absolute or the construct state. Therefore I suspect “tell” is either a mistake or spelled that way in English for some reason completely unrelated to Hebrew phonetics. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/64 "2019-06-26T15:10:02Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I wondered the same ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_state)): > > … > > Tel Aviv means approximately “Spring Hill” (‘spring’ the season, not the water feature). I find Romanizations of the Hebrew word for “hill” as _tell_ – specifically with two 'l’s. However, Tel Aviv (and the Biblical place name Tel Abib, same meaning) are invariably Romanized with one ‘l’. > > In Modern Hebrew, is there indeed a double ‘l’ (geminated ‘l’ for our linguists) in _tell_ and is it salient? Are _tel_ and _tell_ readily told apart at conversational speeds in speech? Or in this case, is the construct state of _tell_ (viz. _tel_) essentially of an orthographic convention? I looked in a Modern Hebrew dictionary (Even Shoshan), and there is no gemination (or vowel change) in “tel” in either the absolute or the construct state. Therefore I suspect “tell” is either a mistake or spelled that way in English for some reason completely unrelated to Hebrew phonology. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/65 "2019-06-26T15:27:33Z")
Probably just because Hebrew _tel_ sounded sufficiently close to English “tell”. So the items in red below are pronounced the same in Modern Hebrew? IOW, the base form and the construct state sound the same for _tel_? **תֵּל** - _tel_ (English “hill”) **תל אביב** - Tel Aviv The transliteration site I used added points for _tel_ and not for Tel Aviv, FWIW. But the consonant letters are clearly identical. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/66 "2019-06-26T18:32:52Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Note that “Tel” is in the construct state; sometimes you see it spelled as Tel-Aviv. I don’t know off the top of my head how that affects the pronunciation precisely, but the end result seems to be that the stress is only on the final syllable of “aviv”, as if it were one word. Also it’s definitely v, not b, in Hebrew. I’d say she may have something there: while the main stress is on the final vowel - \*Tel-ah-VEEV \*- the “Tel” still has a slightly larger stress than the “Ah”. I had to roll it over my tongue a few times just to be sure, though. Incidentally, strictly speaking “Tel” doesn’t mean “Hill”, at least not in a general sense. Instead, it refers to a an artificial hill formed over the remains of an ancient city. “Mound” would probably be more accurate - a naturally evolving man-made mound, if you will. The name “Tel-Aviv” was originally the name of the Hebrew translation of Theodore Herzl’s _Altneuland_, “The Old New Land”, and was supposed to refer to something that was both ancient (a tel) and new (spring). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/67 "2019-06-26T18:53:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yes; it simply cannot be anything else, not the way Spanish spelling works. Why the pronunciation of the first vowel in “Mary/Mari” changes in English depending on how the second vowel is pictured beats me; all I know is that it does. There’s other spelling stuff about English that I’ve eventually found out where it comes from, but not that particular detail. I had a whole response written,but I lost it. Anyway, I don’t think it’s so much that the vowel in “Mary/Mari” changes based on the spelling. I think it’s a matter of multiple vowels that are spelled with an just an ‘a" in English. I’m going to start off with the fact that in my accent, Mary/Murray/marry/merry all have different vowels. That’s not true in every accent. “Marietta” uses the same vowel as “Mary” as does “Mariology” although both are spelled "mari’ . “Maryland” doesn’t use the same vowel as “Mary” even though the spelling is the same. And 'mariner" and “marina” use two different sounds, neither of which is the same as “Mary”. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/68 "2019-06-26T19:55:57Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > “Marietta” uses the same vowel as “Mary” as does “Mariology” … This depends on one’s English dialect, of course 🙂 My "a"s in “Marietta” and “Mary” differ. In IPA, “Marietta” gets /æ/, “Mary” (locally and sometimes controversially!) gets /ɛ/. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/69 "2019-06-26T20:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > This depends on one’s English dialect, of course 🙂 My "a"s in “Marietta” and “Mary” differ. In IPA, “Marietta” gets /æ/, “Mary” (locally and sometimes controversially!) gets /ɛ/. That’s why I mentioned my accent\* - I’m pretty sure I don’t use either of the vowels you mention. Although I don’t know IP nearly well enough to be certain- I think the vowel I use for “Mary” is /e/ - Not dialect - accent refers to differences in pronunciation only, dialect involves differences in grammar and vocabulary as well. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/70 "2019-06-26T21:46:08Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I don’t think it’s so much that the vowel in “Mary/Mari” changes based on the spelling. I think it’s a matter of multiple vowels that are spelled with an just an 'a" in English. Exactly, yes. And different dialects read that letter-a as different vowels depending on whether you spell Mari… or Mary… C’mon, you brough up Mary, marry and merry yourself! > [@bordelond](#): > > English speakers, keep in mind, may try to sound things out but it won’t be based on an ingrained sense of Romance-language phonetics. Different Romance languages have different phonetics, and one of the problems with Spanish or Spanish-transcription words is precisely that many non-Hispanics think they’re familiar with Spanish phonetics but are not (see: turning any letter-r into the ambient sound right before an F1 race). Regarding the unfamiliar spelling, see **doreen** ’s examples for several words including the letters “mari”: the group isn’t exactly unknown in English. And no shit. Anglophones try to sound out things with unfamiliar spellings and fail? Now you tell me! That’s not only Anglophones, it’s anybody. If I ever manage to learn to pronounce that damned French letter-e that’s halfway to an /u/ I’m taking my family out to lunch to celebrate. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/71 "2019-06-26T22:32:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Exactly, yes. And different dialects read that letter-a as different vowels depending on whether you spell Mari… or Mary… C’mon, you brough up Mary, marry and merry yourself! I did - and the sameness or difference of the vowels has nothing to do with the spelling - in each of those words, the “r” ( or “r"s) is followed by “y” and yet in my accent each vowel is pronounced differently. And the letter-a in “Marion” is pronounced just like the one in “marry”, even though it’s spelled with an “i” . It possibly depends on the accent and definitely depends on the word- I’ve never heard a native speaker say " Mary Land” , pronouncing each part as if they were separate words except as a joke. It would be nice if it was as simple as the spelling “Mari” uses a particular vowel sound and “Mary” another - but it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/72 "2019-06-27T01:05:43Z")
This thread reminds us that the same name/word (Cairo, Houston, read, …) is pronounced differently in English depending on context, so it’s pointless to try to figure out whether “Mary” or “Mari” (or for bog’s sake “Marie” or “Mairi/Mhairi”) will automatically be pronounced more properly “foreignly”. Even a fixed spelling like “David” or “Jesus” or “Guillermo” or “Chen” will likely be pronounced differently depending on where the speaker thinks the guy is from! ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/73 "2019-06-27T01:48:31Z")
I have a love for languages, and believe most people like it when their names are pronounced properly. Place names would be next in the hierarchy. Using the foreign words for foods seems a little more pretentious if there is a common English equivalent, but much would depend on context and desired effect. Most Siobhans like it when you pronounce their name close to the way they do. Going to an American-Italian restaurant and saying “I want a plate of spaghetti” in an Italian accent would be too much. I always liked the Bill Bryson discussion of American place names like Versailles (Vur-SAYLES), Athens (AY-thens) and Cairo (Kay-ro). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/74 "2019-06-27T02:30:18Z")
Pronunciation and accent are getting conflated in this thread. If a word in Spanish contains a “trilled R”, or a word in Chinese has the “hissy X”, I am not copying someone’s accent if I use those sounds. I am just getting the pronunciation of the word right. I speak Chinese, but if you ask me to read some English text in a Chinese accent, I can’t do it. I have never been very good with accents. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/75 "2019-06-27T03:28:54Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I speak Chinese, but if you ask me to read some English text in a Chinese accent, I can’t do it. I have never been very good with accents. Unless you come by one naturally, it is something you’ll need training to get exactly right. You can probably learn to speak like a BBC announcer from tapes, but if you are an actor and need to speak English with an Iranian accent or Spanish with a Chinese accent, you probably want to go to a specialised dialect coach. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/76 "2019-06-27T03:37:02Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I did - and the sameness or difference of the vowels has nothing to do with the spelling - in each of those words, the “r” ( or “r"s) is followed by “y” and yet in my accent each vowel is pronounced differently. And the letter-a in “Marion” is pronounced just like the one in “marry”, even though it’s spelled with an “i” . It possibly depends on the accent and definitely depends on the word- I’ve never heard a native speaker say " Mary Land” , pronouncing each part as if they were separate words except as a joke. It would be nice if it was as simple as the spelling “Mari” uses a particular vowel sound and “Mary” another - but it’s not. Fact: in several dialects, Marilou and Marylou are pronounced differently, and the difference in pronunciation is in the first vowel. Is the pronounciation caused by the spelling? Not in origin; the origin is always verbal. But those two spellings are linked to different pronunciations. The difference in spelling is in the fourth letter. A difference in spelling in the fourth vowel is linked to a difference in pronunciation in the first vowel; in the first syllable. That English has no consistent link between spelling and pronunciation and that those two spellings are pronounced differently in some dialects are two completely different issues. You appear to be under the mistaken impression that I was referring to a general difference in pronunciation of “mari” and “mary”: I was referring to the two specific pronunciation/spelling pairs “Marilou” and “Marylou”. And it’s my bloody name: I notice whether people are pronouncing an /a/, an /e/, a schwa… due to some versions being extremely irritating and others not so much. In Spanish unlike in English, vowels are invariant between dialects and super-important; we notice when they get screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/77 "2019-06-27T05:55:49Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Unless you come by one naturally, it is something you’ll need training to get exactly right. You can probably learn to speak like a BBC announcer from tapes, but if you are an actor and need to speak English with an Iranian accent or Spanish with a Chinese accent, you probably want to go to a specialised dialect coach. Yep. To be clear though, I wasn’t lamenting that I can’t do accents. I was just trying to illustrate that pronouncing a word using the standard phonemes for that word in that language is not the same thing at all as trying to affect an accent. Thinking about it, a better example, more relevant to this thread, might be this: I am not American, but I pronounce “Michigan” as “mishy-gn” because that is the standard pronunciation of that word. I would not (and could not) affect an American accent however. (in fairness, the OP doesn’t mention accents directly, but several posters after do) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/78 "2019-06-27T08:02:47Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Tel Aviv means approximately “Spring Hill” (‘spring’ the season, not the water feature). I find Romanizations of the Hebrew word for “hill” as _tell_ – specifically with two 'l’s. However, Tel Aviv (and the Biblical place name Tel Abib, same meaning) are invariably Romanized with one ‘l’. > > In Modern Hebrew, is there indeed a double ‘l’ (geminated ‘l’ for our linguists) in _tell_ and is it salient? Are _tel_ and _tell_ readily told apart at conversational speeds in speech? Or in this case, is the construct state of _tell_ (viz. _tel_) essentially of an orthographic convention? > [@DPRK](#): > > I looked in a Modern Hebrew dictionary (Even Shoshan), and there is no gemination (or vowel change) in “tel” in either the absolute or the construct state. Therefore I suspect “tell” is either a mistake or spelled that way in English for some reason completely unrelated to Hebrew phonology. The doubled l is from the Arabic word تَلّ _tall_ (sometimes romanized “tell”). The tiny w glyph ّ in Arabic script is called \*shaddah \*and indicates a doubled consonant. It’s normal for a two-letter Hebrew word to end with a single consonant where the cognate Arabic word has a doubled (called “geminate”) consonant. Like e.g. חג chag and حجّ Ḥajj. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/79 "2019-06-27T09:37:26Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > It’s normal for a two-letter Hebrew word to end with a single consonant where the cognate Arabic word has a doubled (called “geminate”) consonant. Like e.g. חג chag and حجّ Ḥajj. That’s really interesting; thanks! Indeed, Gesenius tells us that “omission of the strengthening, or at least the loss of the Dageš forte, occurs (a) _almost always_ at the end of a word, since here a strengthened consonant cannot easily be sounded…” and gives some parallel examples in Latin (like mel/mellis) and German. Evidently Arabs are less timid about doubling consonants at the end of a word, or doubling gutturals. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675/80 "2019-06-27T12:36:37Z")
Conversely, there are several Hebrew letters that always receive a Dagesh (strengthening) when at the beginning of a word - the בג"ד כפ"ת letters (very roughly B, G, D, C, P, T). That’s the reason why no native Hebrew word ever starts with an “F” or ends with a “P” - the letter פ is “pronounced P” with a Dagesh, “F”, without one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouncing-foreign-language-words/835675.md?page=5)