# Pronouns and idiot fascists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369 "2022-08-26T01:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/261 "2022-09-02T12:14:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > prisons and domestic violence shelters Which prisons and domestic violence shelters should folks that look like this be in? [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Buckangel_cowboy.JPG/1200px-Buckangel_cowboy.JPG) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Buckangel_cowboy.JPG/1200px-Buckangel_cowboy.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/262 "2022-09-02T12:18:28Z")
Generally speaking, all the female-bodied people should be together with no male-bodied people in prisons and DV shelters. I can’t actually tell which category that individual is in, since so may people have changed their body quite a bit, but we used to have a thing called a “birth certificate” which would give this information accurately. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/263 "2022-09-02T12:19:27Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > we used to have a thing called a “birth certificate” which would give this information accurately. Bwahahahahahahahahaaaa . . . oh wait, you’re being serious! ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/264 "2022-09-02T12:23:45Z")
You want to normalize people with beards being in women’s restrooms? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/265 "2022-09-02T12:25:59Z")
I didn’t read all the back-and-forth that @Dr.Strangelove has been involved with, but I’ve started having the same confusion. I’m cis-male and fine in my body. There are some trans-women who are fine in their bodies, but identify as a woman, and trans-men who are the same, and some who go through hormones and surgery and some who don’t, and so on and so forth. I’m fine with all of that (thanks, RS, like we really need your approval). But, thinking about it, what does it really mean to be a man or a woman? I guess men are more restricted on at least one sense – it is quite unusual for a straight cis-male to dress “like a woman”, with skirts, heels, make-up, whatever. However, women can wear call it men’s styles (jeans, shirts) with no make-up, sneakers, whatever. Women or men can be primary care-givers, primary bread winners, teachers, police officers, long hair, short hair. I don’t really quite understand. OK, so there’s no misunderstanding, I believe gender identity exists and people should use the bathrooms they want, the pronouns they want, be called the name that they want, dress how they want, without prejudice or fear. It’s just that, the more I think about what I mean when I say I’m a man, the less I understand what I mean. It’s something I have to keep thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/266 "2022-09-02T12:26:26Z")
We must force men to use the women’s facilities to keep men out of them . . . or something… ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/267 "2022-09-02T12:28:39Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > all the female-bodied people should be together According to an earlier post in this thread, Buck is female-bodied and has a vagina. So, you want him in the ladies’ room, the women’s prison and DV shelters. So, just say that – that bearded person should be in the ladies’ room. That’s where you would put him, or as you might say, pre-warning, her. ETA: [Here](https://www.insider.com/transgender-models-changing-industry#kenny-ethan-jones-made-a-name-for-himself-when-he-became-the-first-transgender-man-to-star-in-a-campaign-about-menstruation-11) are a bunch more people you would bizarrely put in the wrong bathroom/prison. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/268 "2022-09-02T12:34:43Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It’s just that, the more I think about what I mean when I say I’m a man, the less I understand what I mean. It’s something I have to keep thinking about it. I’ve struggled to really gel with the trans mindset, having grown up in a post-counter-culture world that tried to eliminate gender norms. I (as a boy) played with Barbies and wasn’t guided, consciously at least, in any particular direction, nor were my siblings. “It doesn’t matter what you were born as because boy/girl and man/woman don’t dictate your choices.” But to trans people, they really want to identify with those categories that my parents’ generation worked hard to tear down. With my own trans child, it’s taking me time to work through this notion that they can identify with a gender but then not conform to that genders’ stereotypes. To me, it’s like, if you don’t want to conform in those ways, why does the label matter? But it does to them. It matters a lot. As an example, and maybe to address some of **Dr. Strangelove** ’s questions, why would someone AMAB want to choose a traditional female name and use she/her pronouns but then continue to dress in traditional boy clothes? If you’re going to be a trans girl just to be a tomboy, isn’t that just being a boy with extra steps? This is the sort of learning I need to do and the understanding I strive for. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/269 "2022-09-02T12:38:15Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > This is the sort of learning I need to do and the understanding I strive for. Same here. I read the transgender threads here with interest and really wish that the transphobic bigots hadn’t chased away a big chunk of the trans community that used to be here. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/270 "2022-09-02T12:46:53Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Part of the reason that they feel the same is that both try to reframe debate by saying that support of marginalized group X as bigotry against marginalized group Y. So you have the Gender critical people saying that being pro-trans, is being anti feminist, while the race realists say that being pro affirmative action is being anti-Asian. Also, they tend to rely on a combination of argument by assertion and very carefully cherrypicked and deliberately misinterpreted science, backed up by citations from sites with a strong bias in favor of their agenda, in order to pretend that their positions have any sort of rational basis. They then use this pretense to claim that anyone who disagrees with them is “refusing to see the truth”. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/271 "2022-09-02T12:49:23Z")
I’m guessing @Aspidistra will never actually address why she wants bearded people in the women’s room. No transphobe has ever addressed it. It’s always been the obvious conclusion from these various “bathroom bill” discussions. If I, as a bearded man, can’t be questioned for being in the women’s room because I may have been AFAB and, if so, I’d simply be using the bathroom I’m legally being forced to use, then this creates the exact “danger predator” situation that the transphobes claim these rules are needed to prevent. It’s such a blatant, obvious flaw in their plan that there’s no possible rebuttal. And it reveals the lie of their supposed tolerance. They simply want people AFAB not to be legally allowed to have beards and look like men. Or in other words, trans people shouldn’t exist. That’s all they’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/272 "2022-09-02T12:50:57Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Or in other words, trans people shouldn’t exist. That’s all they’ve got. Or, if they must exist, they should suffer and die. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/273 "2022-09-02T12:55:43Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > we used to have a thing called a “birth certificate” which would give this information accurately You are a small, scared, very sad person. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/274 "2022-09-02T12:59:53Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I’m guessing @Aspidistra will never actually address why she wants bearded people in the women’s room. Of course they did. If they are a woman with a woman body, they should use the women’s room and then … > [@Aspidistra](#): > > She should say “This is a space for female bodies, and my body is female”. Then Woman A would say “Oh, sorry, I made a mistake” and they would both go about their business. Which is something that would totally happen when you normalize bathroom exclusivity. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/275 "2022-09-02T13:02:16Z")
Oh, right. I’ll have to remember that polite phrasing when I’m prowling the women’s restroom in the future. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/276 "2022-09-02T13:37:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If I, as a bearded man, can’t be questioned for being in the women’s room because I may have been AFAB and, if so, I’d simply be using the bathroom I’m legally being forced to use, then this creates the exact “danger predator” situation that the transphobes claim these rules are needed to prevent. It’s such a blatant, obvious flaw in their plan that there’s no possible rebuttal. I’m genuinely surprised that the reply hasn’t been, _“well, give them their own separate but equal facilities.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/277 "2022-09-02T13:43:42Z")
My office does in fact have a couple of gender-neutral restrooms (in addition to the usual men’s/women’s ones). Pandemonium has somehow failed to ensue. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/278 "2022-09-02T14:01:19Z")
Re Feeling Like A Man I have this feeling rather strongly. I would MUCH rather sew a stuffed animal or hold a small child than watch sports or drink beer. But, I have strong internal sense of ‘being male’. To me it’s a very important but also very limited thing. “Do you feel like a man?” “Yes! very much so.” “And what does that mean?” “It means I feel like a man.” ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/279 "2022-09-02T14:05:20Z")
Seems a little circular. I agree that I feel like a man, but I also don’t know what that means. I’m not much of a sewer, but I would definitely rather hold a small child than watch sports. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/280 "2022-09-02T14:11:07Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Seems a little circular. I agree that I feel like a man, but I also don’t know what that means. I’m not much of a sewer, but I would definitely rather hold a small child than watch sports. ⁢ Only if one presumes that feelings must have some sort of basis, that they don’t exist in their own right. And that said feelings must in fact have the same basis in everyone. No one flips out if I say I’m happy but can’t say why. Or if I’m happy for a reason that’s different from why you are happy. Yet, when it comes to feeling like a particular gender, people seem to require something else. Heck, even sexuality doesn’t have an explanation. Sure, being straight means that I don’t feel attraction to men. But what does it mean to feel attraction to men? Why don’t I feel attracted to them? There’s no real answer. At least, nothing beyond saying “genetics and environment.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=15)