# Pronouns and idiot fascists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369 "2022-08-26T01:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/385 "2022-09-05T22:06:38Z")
How old is this nephew? My boss’s daughter recently came out as trans. 1. no one is going to do anything to make her sterile until she’s an adult. Up to what age do you want to legally control person B’s medical decisions? 2. they have already banked her sperm, in anticipation of that being a likely choice she will make. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/386 "2022-09-05T22:19:30Z")
Solutions which seem sensible to you do not seem sensible to me ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/387 "2022-09-05T22:25:25Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > How old is this nephew? Kindly answer the question, **Aspidistra** ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/388 "2022-09-05T22:29:49Z")
You’ve said she wore a dress to her 18th so she is old enough to make her own medical decisions without auntie aspidistra interfering. It sounds like whatever she has done has been in a non supportive family environment. That isn’t easy. Unless you were in all the doctor and psychologist appointments how can you possibly know what is right and what is not for her. You’d rather she was drug addicted like her brother? Not everyone wants kids and many people can’t have them without medical assistance. That’s not really a trans issue. How she presents to family and to the world may be very different things but what is most important is how she feels in herself. My parents locked me up in psych treatment basically for not being feminine enough and being queer. It fucked me over for years and years. I only untangled the mess and self accepted in my 40s. It was too late to save me, my body is shot from all my self medicating and harm. You’d rather that for your niece? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/389 "2022-09-05T22:51:18Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > “I’m not touching you” should be renamed the Novelty Bubble. That’s not my name, I wonder if you are mis-stating it for some reason. In any case, what about my lack of preference is in anyway akin to “I’m not touching you?” I don’t see any connection. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/390 "2022-09-05T23:08:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t see any connection Also part of the “Novelty Bubble” game. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/391 "2022-09-05T23:11:05Z")
> [@Thylacine](#): > > You’d rather that for your niece? No. By the logic of these assholes, their niece should kill herself and save the whole family the embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/392 "2022-09-05T23:48:31Z")
What my family members are doing to themselves IS self-harm. Nobody is being mean to them or forcing stuff on them. I’m sorry that the things that happened to you in your childhood happened, but this is a different situation, you can’t project your memories of your own childhood onto someone else’s family ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/393 "2022-09-05T23:53:40Z")
Yes, nobody in your family believes them to be a girl except the only one who matters. We got that you think your perception more important than her reality. Just the fact you ignore her wishes and call her him and nephew is more than enough information to judge the situation. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/394 "2022-09-06T00:06:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > And I would VERY much like to have LEGAL PERMISSION to try to prevent the same thing happening with Person B. Where Person B is everyone that isn’t Aspidistra whether they like it or not right? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/395 "2022-09-06T00:23:48Z")
Yeah, that’s damn scary. I don’t want some busybody controlling my medical decisions. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/396 "2022-09-06T00:44:03Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That’s not my name, I wonder if you are mis-stating it for some reason. ⁢ You’re being passive aggressive here. You could have just asked why they misspelled your name. Instead, you had to insinuate they did something wrong, without directly saying it. It could have been a typo. It could have been a pun: you’re not touching people, so, it’s like you’re in a bubble. But, no, you’d rather be irritating and hopefully piss them off. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In any case, what about my lack of preference is in anyway akin to “I’m not touching you?” Your post contains more than just your claim that you have no pronoun preference. You claimed you just want to stay out of the pronoun debate. And yet, in that same post, you decided to weigh in on the pronoun issue. You even give your opinion about the situation, and state that you are someone who has no preferences. You got involved while saying you weren’t going to. You know, just like when a kid says “I’m not touching you” while actually touching you. * * * Regardless, the actual OP of this thread is not a debate about the pronoun issue. It’s settled. Call people by the pronouns they request. The topic of this thread are the people who lie about their pronoun preferences as a way to advertise they are transphobes. You have no preference. That’s fine. You can say that. Or, if you need to fill in boxes or something, you can say “he/she/they.” And people should respect that, just like they would any other pronoun preference. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/397 "2022-09-06T00:49:56Z")
Yep. You (@Aspidistra) know referring to her as “him” causes your niece distress. It would be an easy thing to change. Doing so would not mean that trans women are in women’s prisons or restrooms. It wouldn’t mean she would play in women’s sports. Nothing you claim to be worried about would change. But you can’t do it. Because this is a culture war for you, and that’s more important. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/398 "2022-09-06T01:36:08Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > What my family members are doing to themselves IS self-harm. According to what medical or legal criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/399 "2022-09-06T02:29:27Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Nobody in the family thinks he “is” a girl. Nobody. …wow. So it turns out: you really are just a _horrible_ person. As is everyone in the family. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > And I would VERY much like to have LEGAL PERMISSION to try to prevent the same thing happening with Person B. I would very much like it that you never ever have LEGAL PERMISSION to intervene in someone else’s medical care. > [@DocCathode](#): > > I am curious about The Librarian- TERF or just someone who fell for TERF propaganda? The thing is: the propaganda is very very effective. At the base level is can sound just so _reasonable_. It’s why the sports debate dominated the discourse for so long and why it continues to be used as a wedge. “It’s all about fairness in women’s sports” is just the latest version of “It’s all about ethics in games journalism.” There is a line, and I don’t believe the Librarian has crossed that line yet. “The hook” is getting people to believe that this is a “both sides debate”, that the gender critical argument “has a point” and that if we debate this enough then we can get to the point that “both sides win.” It’s when they get sucked in, and start swallowing wholesale the types of propaganda that Aspidistra is vomiting all over this thread, that the line gets crossed. With people like the Librarian, I find that not re-litigating the debate is the best approach. Because on the grand scale of things right now, that debate is _trivial_ compared to the real life attacks on the lives of transgender people that is going on. And with people like Aspidistra, I _also_ find that not re-litigating the debate is the best approach. Because mockery is so much more rewarding. And it’s pointless arguing with a brick wall. Oh: and I’m a hot chocolate drinker. Bunch of teetotallers here in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/400 "2022-09-06T02:57:53Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Nobody in the family thinks he “is” a girl. Nobody. Except, as someone else said, **herself**. You just flat out reject even that minimal accommodation. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Aspidistra](#): > > > > I would VERY much like to have LEGAL PERMISSION to try to prevent the same thing happening with Person B. > > Where Person B is everyone that isn’t Aspidistra whether they like it or not Yeah, that’s where I join in saying oh HELL no you don’t interfere with anyone else. Under our legal traditions we get to “own” ourselves, and our own children until they achieve legal majority, but that’s it. Live with it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/401 "2022-09-06T03:24:44Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I have been **assured** that ROGD is **completely made up** and there is definitely no social influence on any young person to call themselves trans No you haven’t, at least not in this thread. See post #106 where it’s explicitly acknowledged that adolescent transgender identification can sometimes be socially influenced: > [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Rapid onset gender dysphoria is not a diagnosis. If anything, it is a research hypothesis. The question of whether it is one that should be explored is ongoing. […] > > > > That said, the article does raise some interesting questions that should and could be examined in a way that does not inherently pathologize gender identity. > > If transphobes were ever interested in actual debate rather than just excuses to reaffirm their linguistic gatekeeping, we could potentially have a productive debate around the unquestioned fact that not all children who identify as transgender at some point do so “insistently, persistently and consistently”. > > Obviously, just as some heterosexual people being briefly “bi-curious” is a real phenomenon, and some (mostly) heterosexual people being “gay until graduation” is a real phenomenon, there’s no intrinsic reason why some adolescents being “temporarily transgender-identified” can’t be a real phenomenon. Young people especially are always trying on new identities that they end up not sticking with forever, and there’s no reason to think that transgender or gender-fluid identities aren’t part of that experimentation for some young people. Naturally, too, high-profile social controversies can affect trends in such experimentation. The fact that you can’t even halfway defend your confused transphobic polemics without thoroughly misrepresenting the opposition to your claims ought to be a clue to you that your movement’s agenda is not trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/402 "2022-09-06T06:56:55Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m a hot chocolate drinker. Bunch of teetotallers here in the pit. More beer and whisky and wine for me, then… ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/403 "2022-09-06T07:11:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You’re being passive aggressive here. You could have just asked why they misspelled your name. Instead, you had to insinuate they did something wrong, without directly saying it. In a thread that deals with preferences and calling people what they want to be called, do you not think it relevant if someone continues to mis-state a name when it has been politely pointed out to them? > [@BigT](#): > > It could have been a typo. It could have been a pun: you’re not touching people, so, it’s like you’re in a bubble. But, no, you’d rather be irritating and hopefully piss them off. So in a situation where someone purposefully uses the wrong name repeatedly you think the mis-named person pointing it out is in the wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/404 "2022-09-06T08:46:12Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So in a situation where someone purposefully uses the wrong name repeatedly you think the mis-named person pointing it out is in the wrong? Look, it’s pretty clear that you’re just playing sealion about the (extremely mild) Pitname “Novelty Bubble” to carry on that nitpicky argument. If you want to go back to discussing something substantive, I personally don’t think it’s automatically transphobic or insulting to say you don’t have a pronoun preference, as long as you then don’t object to whatever pronouns somebody uses for you, and are careful to use the preferred pronouns of others correctly. It does seem, however, kind of pointlessly dickish and self-congratulatory to make a whole “none of your business” thing about a request for your pronouns. I mean, either you unambiguously present as one gender and could simply easily confirm that the expected default pronouns for that gender are acceptable, or else your gender presentation is not unambiguous, so you do need to specify at least some information about acceptable pronouns in order not to confuse people. Making a gratuitous announcement that you are refusing to provide any information about your gender identity out of some half-baked claim about a privacy principle, while using a language with grammatically gendered pronouns so that anybody who refers to you in the third person cannot avoid making some kind of statement about your gender, is just being tiresome. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: The whole issue of transgender would be far simpler and less problematic for everybody involved if the transphobes and attention whores hadn’t decided to drama-queen it up to make it all about themselves. All y’all are not being oppressed if you’re not the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=21)