# Pronouns and idiot fascists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369 "2022-08-26T01:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/425 "2022-09-06T13:24:24Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I thought that was neatly addressed by the title of the thread: I’m not in the habit of engaging with trolls or hateful bigots. [Serious question: why isn’t that account banned yet?] …but shouldn’t your focus be on education and creating a more accepting environment? How **dare** you call them a troll and/or a hateful bigot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/426 "2022-09-06T13:35:15Z")
Calling them as you see them is part of education. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/427 "2022-09-06T14:15:34Z")
Wait, calling people by a name they called themselves\*, TERF, is going to far. But this, > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > trolls or hateful bigots isn’t? \*I have fond memories of a message board where calling Tea Baggers Tea Baggers was forbidden once everyone realized the other meaning of what the morans where self identifying as. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/428 "2022-09-06T14:25:23Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > To everyone who isn’t a piece of shit, you’ve given me some interesting stuff to think about. I’ll get back to you asap. So, any further thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/429 "2022-09-06T14:34:14Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > \*I have fond memories of a message board where calling Tea Baggers Tea Baggers was forbidden once everyone realized the other meaning of what the morans where self identifying as. IKR? I wouldn’t want to be associated with right wing activists, either! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/430 "2022-09-06T14:45:23Z")
The rule I go by is to treat people how they are comfortable being treated. I might not care about slurs, but others do. I might not care about mispronunciation but others do. I might not care about pronouns but others do. It isn’t a hard rule to stick to. Just be polite. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/431 "2022-09-06T15:13:02Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Put another way “feeling male/female” is just accepting the premise that gender identity is actually a distinct thing. But what does it actually entail? I can point to concrete traits that are gender-conforming. I don’t know what a gender identity trait would look like. You’re the fish who doesn’t believe in water because it’s undetectable. Such a fish might say: “I can point to concrete things in what you call water; there’s an aquatic plant, there’s a midge larva, there’s me. But I don’t find any such thing as water that they all have in common.” If such a fish ever found itself on dry land, then it would directly realize what water is. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/432 "2022-09-06T15:13:36Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I might not care about pronouns but others do. When, as a general inquiry, you are asked what pronouns you prefer, if you reply, “none” it certainly seems as though you _do_ care. It seems even more relevant in text form. Many names are somewhat androgynous, and even the ones that are not are sometimes used unconventionally. I know men named Stacey and Tracy, and I know women names Nick and Todd. In a setting like this, I have even less idea. Is a Novelty Bobble a masculine or feminine object? Remember the old SNL sketch that probably hasn’t aged well, “It’s Pat!”? How much confusion would have been avoided if someone had asked what their prefered pronouns were? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It isn’t a hard rule to stick to. Just be polite. What you suggest is actually an extremely impolite answer to a polite question. You are the one who is breaking your own rule here. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/433 "2022-09-06T15:27:45Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When, as a general inquiry, you are asked what pronouns you prefer, if you reply, “none” it certainly seems as though you _do_ care. That doesn’t make sense. When asked if I have a preference and I say I don’t, it what way does that suggest I _do_ care about which pronouns are used for me? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > What you suggest is actually an extremely impolite answer to a polite question. You are the one who is breaking your own rule here. How so? If anyone ever asks me directly (it has never happened) I’d simply say “I don’t care use whatever makes you comfortable”. How is that impolite. If they told me what they wanted to be called then I expect, barring extreme trolling on their part, that I’d comply. Can’t see why I wouldn’t. How is that impolite? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/434 "2022-09-06T15:30:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I guess I don’t understand what it is to _feel_ male. > […] > But I can’t really conceive of how in any case I would have some inherent _feeling_ about any of it; it would just be. To be forced into the gender situation antithetical to one’s gender identity feels like everything has gone wrong, like existence itself is grating, painful. You feel you don’t belong there. To be allowed into the gender situation harmonious with one’s gender identity feels right, it feels comfortable and downright blissful compared to its antithesis. You feel you belong there. In cultures/social situations where men and women are segregated into physically separate spaces, the sense of belonging or not belonging is heightened acutely. In public spaces even where all genders mingle freely, that invisible prison goes along with a person, influencing how society treats them. To feel one is in the wrong place and needs to get out, without being able to get out, is excruciating. The need to get to the right place is all-important. Like a fish on dry land needing the water. That’s what it fucking feels like. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/435 "2022-09-06T15:31:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > When asked if I have a preference and I say I don’t Because it’s obvious bullshit. If you were in a conversation and others kept referring to you as “he” or “she” or “they” or whatever you _don’t_ think you are, you’d obviously get annoyed. I’m a “he” and if, after correcting someone who called me “she” or “they”, they kept at it, I would be annoyed. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/436 "2022-09-06T15:35:46Z")
Linguistic question, my American butt!! It’s a fucking existential crisis. Don’t knock it if you ain’t walked a mile in somebody’s moccasins. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/437 "2022-09-06T15:48:22Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > To be allowed into the gender situation harmonious with one’s gender identity feels right As I said, it’s something I don’t experience, and I’m not sure there’s an analogy that would adequately convey the feeling, so it’s only something that can be described to me. In this respect, it’s similar to my color-blindness. I am red-green color blind, so there are certain hues that you can distinguish that I can’t. I take your word that they are different colors, but there’s no way I can really understand the experience. I certainly don’t deny your experience; I am very aware that you are experiencing something that I apparently just can’t experience. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/438 "2022-09-06T15:54:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That doesn’t make sense. When asked if I have a preference and I say I don’t, it what way does that suggest I _do_ care about which pronouns are used for me? I mean, what you actually said was “none”. Either you have no pronouns, or your preferred pronoun is actually “none”. It’s not that hard, really, if you typically identify as a man, you say, “He”, if you typically identify as a woman, you say, “she.” Anything else is trying to turn it into something else, some sort of statement, which is why it would seem as though you car, quite a bit. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > How so? If anyone ever asks me directly (it has never happened) I’d simply say “I don’t care use whatever makes you comfortable”. How is that impolite. So, you wouldn’t mind if they started using a pronoun that was not the one that is associated with the gender you identify with? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If they told me what they wanted to be called then I expect, barring extreme trolling on their part, that I’d comply. Can’t see why I wouldn’t. How is that impolite? What would you consider to be extreme trolling? Personally, I would consider it to be less _extreme_, and more kinda pathetic trolling, but certainly not polite, to reply with “none” as you said you would do, so where’s your line? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/439 "2022-09-06T16:05:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > How so? If anyone ever asks me directly (it has never happened) I’d simply say “I don’t care use whatever makes you comfortable”. How is that impolite. If someone really felt more comfortable calling me “Bill” than my actual name, I’m not going to care. But if someone says, “What’s your name,” I’m not going to say “I don’t have one.” We’re all guessing that whatever pronouns you’ve been using your entirely life are de facto your “preferred” pronouns, and you’re being weird about just acknowledging that. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/440 "2022-09-06T16:25:33Z")
And even if you truly don’t care, I think it’s extremely impolite and passive-aggressive af NOT to correct someone that inadvertently misgenders you ( which I have done before, not in person but during a phone conversation ) even if you don’t care. Because they will continue to make the mistake, and eventually they will make the mistake in the presence of a third party. At which point they will be very embarrassed, and their reaction will be “I’ve been calling you Jane for six freaking months, why didn’t you tell me your name was John? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/441 "2022-09-06T17:38:37Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > What my family members are doing to themselves IS self-harm. Nobody is being mean to them or forcing stuff on them. I’m sorry that the things that happened to you in your childhood happened, but this is a different situation, you can’t project your memories of your own childhood onto someone else’s family Really? 🤨 _You_ seem to be projecting memories of your own family and their experiences on to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/442 "2022-09-06T17:40:55Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You prove my point by providing a definition that bears no relation to the concept as originally intended. Sure it does. The whole point of [the original comic](http://wondermark.com/1k62/) is that the sealion spends the entire strip being a relentlessly invasive asshole that it’s perfectly reasonable to dislike. He does this by constantly and intrusively hammering on the tangential questions of what specific evidence the speaker had to support her initially stated dislike of sealions (in a private conversation that the sealion was eavesdropping on, what’s more), and why she won’t continue to debate the issue with him. That’s exactly what I mean by saying that sealioning is relentless nitpicking of superficial aspects of a claim in order to deflect and distract from the truth of its fundamental point. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > #379 isn’t my post Uh, [yes it is?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/379) At least, that’s the post number Discourse shows me when I click on that post. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/443 "2022-09-06T17:41:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I mean, what you actually said was “none”. Either you have no pronouns, or your preferred pronoun is actually “none”. or the “none” refers to the preference. i.e. Do I have a preference? no. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not that hard, really, if you typically identify as a man, you say, “He”, if you typically identify as a woman, you say, “she.” I don’t know what it means to “identify” as a man or a woman. It isn’t a part of my mental makeup. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you wouldn’t mind if they started using a pronoun that was not the one that is associated with the gender you identify with? If someone is being genuine and respectful? I doubt that I would. The pronouns they choose to use for me is the least of my worries. If a person was making a choice to use certain words because they think it will offend me or annoy me then my annoyance would stem from their intent rather than their actual voicing of the word. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > What would you consider to be extreme trolling? I honestly don’t know what that would look like. It has never come up. I can imagine a scenario where people make a request for others to use certain pronouns, or demand to know my preferred pronouns with the intent of making some kind of political point. That would be obnoxious. Hopefully that remains rare. Same with the ethnicity or sexuality questions. I just don’t answer those unless I think they are relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/444 "2022-09-06T17:44:37Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If someone really felt more comfortable calling me “Bill” than my actual name, I’m not going to care. But if someone says, “What’s your name,” I’m not going to say “I don’t have one.” Exactly the same for me. > [@steronz](#): > > We’re all guessing that whatever pronouns you’ve been using your entirely life are de facto your “preferred” pronouns, and you’re being weird about just acknowledging that. I’m pretty sure that some people change their opinion on the usage of pronouns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=23)