# Pronouns and idiot fascists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369 "2022-08-26T01:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/445 "2022-09-06T17:48:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know what it means to “identify” as a man or a woman. It isn’t a part of my mental makeup. Or mine either. That’s cis privilege for you: most of us cisgender people don’t need to develop any conscious awareness of gender identity because our form of gender identity is so culturally normalized that it never gets articulated. It’s like white people in historically white-supremacist societies who declare that their race is simply “human”. They genuinely don’t have any conscious awareness of “feeling” specifically like a “white person” instead of just a “person”. That’s because their racial identity is the culturally normalized default condition of “personhood” in the society they live in. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/446 "2022-09-06T17:49:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure it does. The whole point of [the original comic](http://wondermark.com/1k62/) is that the sealion spends the entire strip being a relentlessly invasive asshole that it’s perfectly reasonable to dislike. He does this by constantly and intrusively hammering on the tangential questions of what specific evidence the speaker had to support her initially stated dislike of sealions (in a private conversation that the sealion was eavesdropping on, what’s more), and why she won’t continue to debate the issue with him. None of which applies to whatever it is you imagine I was doing. And when I scroll to my first post it shows #374 and clicks over to #375. Doesn’t matter. We already know which post you are referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/447 "2022-09-06T18:13:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And when I scroll to my first post it shows #374 and clicks over to #375. When you click on [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/379)? Weird. I’ve reported that linked post for moderation to have somebody check out the inconsistent post numbering, which I presume might be a symptom of some sneaky bug in Discourse. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/448 "2022-09-06T18:25:41Z")
Unfortunatly once a certain amount of people agree on an idioms meaning it becomes a word. I’m willing to bet you don’t know the original meanings of a lot of words you use. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/449 "2022-09-06T18:29:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > We’re all guessing that whatever pronouns you’ve been using your entirely life are de facto your “preferred” pronouns, and you’re being weird about just acknowledging that. > > I’m pretty sure that some people change their opinion on the usage of pronouns. Huh ? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/450 "2022-09-06T18:38:14Z")
I took that to mean that even if you previously identified as a “he” you can, through the process of self-discovery, change that identification or even drop it altogether. Of course, this is only a guess because the post seems pretty obtuse to me. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/451 "2022-09-06T20:30:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > When you click on [this post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/379)? Weird. I’ve reported that linked post for moderation to have somebody check out the inconsistent post numbering, which I presume might be a symptom of some sneaky bug in Discourse. I don’t know what you mean by “click” on the post. When I do that nothing happens. The scrolling counter on the right side of the screen starts off at “1” for the first post and as you scroll that one to the top of the screen it changes to “2” and so on. For the post you are referencing it shows “374” and changes to “375” as I continue scrolling. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/452 "2022-09-06T20:44:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I took that to mean that even if you previously identified as a “he” you can, through the process of self-discovery, change that identification or even drop it altogether. Of course, this is only a guess because the post seems pretty obtuse to me. Sure, that’s pretty much it. my sentence could have been clearer though. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m pretty sure that some people change their opinion on the usage of pronouns. Is probably better stated as “some people do change which pronouns they prefer to have applied to themselves” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/453 "2022-09-06T21:01:41Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > What’s offensive is that the first of these is my actual goddamn nephew who is now sterile because of this bullshit. Nobody in the family thinks he “is” a girl. [Moderating] This is your second warning in this thread for violating the rules against misgendering. I’ll be discussing if any further steps are necessary with the other moderators. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/454 "2022-09-06T21:05:35Z")
Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/455 "2022-09-06T21:19:25Z")
I don’t think so really. No “moment of clarity” just a growing confidence to state clearly what I think. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/456 "2022-09-06T21:23:31Z")
After careful self reflection, I’ve recognized that I was even more right than I ever imagined? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/457 "2022-09-06T21:42:28Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > You’re the fish who doesn’t believe in water because it’s undetectable. Such a fish might say: “I can point to concrete things in what you call water; there’s an aquatic plant, there’s a midge larva, there’s me. But I don’t find any such thing as water that they all have in common.” **iiandyiiii** seems to have a strong male identity; one that I don’t share. And yet we’re both pretty clearly male. So I don’t think the fish in water analogy is entirely convincing. Regardless, that misses the point of the subthread. **Kimstu** posited that gender conformity is an orthogonal concept to gender identity. A transgender person may not adopt the dress or other social mores of their gender identity, while still feeling that they are in the wrong body. But other trans people do not suffer physical dysphoria. They may feel that their gender identity doesn’t match their position in society and wish to socially transition without any physical transition (whether surgical or hormonal). As **Kimstu** noted, others may go even farther and explicitly express their physical sex (say, with a beard) while identifying as a woman (I may have known someone like this, though they may have just been a dedicated cross-dresser). But… how can these two sets of people possibly mean the same thing when they talk about gender identity? For one, it’s physical, while for the other it’s social. And an individual person may be non-conforming on these fronts. My later suggestion is that it’s enough that each one feels a mismatch, even though the reasons are different. Still, it’s hard to have a useful discussion on the issues without recognizing the difference. And if _neither_ of these things presents as a mismatch–that is, someone felt no dyphoria or any desire to socially express outside of their sex-assigned-at-birth–then what could it possibly mean for them to have a gender identity other than their assigned one? To be clear, these are just philosophical questions. I don’t think the example of an obvious male that presents as a man but claims to be a woman (or attack helicopter) is really a thing, or at least it’s not common enough to matter. Certainly none of the answers change how I’ll treat transgender people. But they are, to me, interesting questions. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/458 "2022-09-06T23:19:52Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > To be forced into the gender situation antithetical to one’s gender identity feels like everything has gone wrong, like existence itself is grating, painful. You feel you don’t belong there. > > To be allowed into the gender situation harmonious with one’s gender identity feels right, it feels comfortable and downright blissful compared to its antithesis. You feel you belong there. > > In cultures/social situations where men and women are segregated into physically separate spaces, the sense of belonging or not belonging is heightened acutely. In public spaces even where all genders mingle freely, that invisible prison goes along with a person, influencing how society treats them. To feel one is in the wrong place and needs to get out, without being able to get out, is excruciating. The need to get to the right place is all-important. Like a fish on dry land needing the water. > > That’s what it fucking feels like. By this description, perhaps i am a trans man. I don’t mind using the ladies restroom. But I’ve been in all-female social settings, like a woman’s study group, and i felt very much like i didn’t belong there. I’ve obviously never been in a setting restricted to men, but I’ve often been the only woman in a group, and honestly, I’m completely comfortable in those situations. Much more comfortable than at ladies night. And it grates me when people are too aggressive about “treating me like a woman”, such as holding the door for me, but not for men. But it’s not excruciating, and I’ve never felt the need to identify as a man. Still, i hate being asked my pronouns. (And yes, I’ve been asked a few times.) Because, of course people usually call me “she”, but it feels very wrong to be “she first” like that. My signature line at work says “any pronouns”, and i mean that in all sincerity. I look female, but i have a deep voice and I’ve been told i walk like a man. I’m routinely “sirred” over the phone, and I’ve been addressed as a male in person when bundled in a coat. I never correct people who do that. I suppose if it were someone i expected to see regularly, I’d have to do as not to put them in an awkward situation? I’ve also been called “they” and “zi”, by people who know me well and prefer to use gender-neutral language. I’m honest-to-God fine with any pronouns, do long as you aren’t trying to insult me or something. I’m dubious that @Novelty_Bobble has actually experienced being taken for a woman, as I’m pretty sure he’s said he’s a large, athletic man. But I’ve experienced being taken for both a man and a woman lots of times. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/459 "2022-09-07T01:18:00Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t know what you mean by “click” on the post. When I do that nothing happens. Click on the timestamp in the upper right corner of the post. That produces a popup with “Share Post [post number]” and a link to the post, with a URL that contains the same post number. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/460 "2022-09-07T01:20:42Z")
Not if you have the special “willfully obtuse” version of the browser. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/461 "2022-09-07T02:06:50Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > But other trans people do not suffer physical dysphoria. They may feel that their gender identity doesn’t match their position in society and wish to socially transition without any physical transition (whether surgical or hormonal). As **Kimstu** noted, others may go even farther and explicitly express their physical sex (say, with a beard) while identifying as a woman (I may have known someone like this, though they may have just been a dedicated cross-dresser). That pretty closely describes me. I never felt my biological plumbing was wrong, but neither did I feel like it made me less of the kind of person that girls were recognized and valued (including by each other) for being. Guinastasia once said “So like a tomboy in reverse?” which is totally how I thought of it. I didn’t embrace ‘trans’ as an identifier because in the era when I came out, that was 100% associated with doing a physical transition, and it still implies that for more people than not. But although I don’t embrace the label, I fit the official definition, since how I identify inside my head isn’t what’s expected based on what the obstetrician put on my birth cert. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/462 "2022-09-07T02:44:14Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > To be clear, these are just philosophical questions. It’s exhausting trying to explain my struggle to exist to anyone who takes this ivory tower abstract view of lived human experience. Who views human beings like abstract math equations. I’m not a “philosophical question” or a “linguistic question,” you twit. I’m a person and my fucking human rights are under attack. I explained it to you and you dismissed my explanation. Your cisgender privilege is so all-pervasive that you’re still that fish denying the existence of water. To all of you who are so blithe about “there’s no such thing as gender identity,” own your cisgender privilege that blinds you to itself. If we’ve had this discussion about privilege, whether white, male, straight, able, we’ve had it a thousand times. You can lead the horse to water but you can’t make it drink. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/463 "2022-09-07T02:51:50Z")
Also, all that being said, if you ARE comfortable with your gender identity, i encourage you to proactively share your pronouns. It is nice for those whose pronouns might not always be obvious if the simple action of sharing their pronouns doesn’t single them out as “other”. It’s a tiny thing you can do to make the world a better place for your trans friends and coworkers. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2022, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/464 "2022-09-07T02:58:43Z")
Why can’t we have it both ways? I like my hot chocolate with Baileys. 🍸 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=24)