# Pronouns and idiot fascists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369 "2022-08-26T01:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/121 "2022-08-31T23:05:16Z")
Interesting that, when presented with a hypothetical situation, **Aspidistra** has once again chosen the option most likely to get trans people beaten up and/or arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/122 "2022-08-31T23:11:09Z")
While pointedly ignoring the case where the trans person did exactly what they suggest… and still got assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/123 "2022-08-31T23:40:34Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Apparently “male” and “female” have now joined “man” and “woman” as terms which are considered on this board to apply to gender identity, not biological sex. > > This is interesting, since it’s less than six months since I was admonished that “no-one is saying that sex isn’t real”. So - sex is “real” and yet all the terms that distinguish people on the basis of biological sex are now being transferred over to gender identity distinctions instead? There are two separate issues here: 1. Is biological sex a real phenomenon? 2. Is it acceptable to insist on describing an individual by their birth biological sex in order to deliberately deny and contradict their (transgender) gender identity? The answer to the first question is “Yes”, and the answer to the second question is “No”. We can all see that your references to question (1) are deliberate gambits to cover up your malicious engagement in the behavior described in question (2), so I don’t know whom you think you’re fooling here. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > Is there in fact any pair of terms that is currently acceptable to group all of the people with male reproductive organs in one group and all the people with female reproductive organs in another? There are certainly acceptable terms for grouping all of the people born with male reproductive organs (and/or other physical characteristics associated with being biologically male) in one group, and all the people born with female reproductive organs (and/or other physical characteristics associated with being biologically female) in another. Those terms are, respectively, “Assigned Male At Birth” (AMAB) and “Assigned Female At Birth” (AFAB). However, those terms don’t necessarily imply that the individual in question currently has the same set of reproductive organs that they were born with. So I don’t know whether they meet your desired criteria. I’m guessing that they don’t, because what you really seem to be asking here is “Are there acceptable terms that I can use for the purpose of explicitly contradicting a transgender person’s gender identity, like when I insist on calling an AMAB transgender woman ‘male’?” Again, the answer to that question is “No”. If you really want to be able to express the exact distinction you’re asking about, you can use the accurate and descriptive terms “people with penises” and “people with vaginas”, respectively. Again, though, it’s unacceptably assholish to insist on referring to, say, a transgender woman with a penis as a “person with a penis” just so you can keep refusing to call her a transgender woman. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/124 "2022-08-31T23:57:37Z")
I (among others) reported you, @Aspidistra, because you were clearly using “male” to mean the same thing as “man.” You weren’t merely using it to refer to someone with a penis or XY chromosomes. And you had been given a note to avoid such. And you have a history of misgendering. You’re clearly playing rhetorical games here, in this and other ways. It’s why I’ve stopped trying to convince you. Others apparently still have more faith that you can be convinced with logic. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.E](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.e/32/8932_2.png) [@Mr.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.E)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/125 "2022-09-01T00:01:06Z")
It’s also entirely possible (but not required) for a transgender woman to not have a penis, so you have to slice it even thinner to things like “has a uterus” vs “doesn’t have a uterus” and then, of course, there are plenty of cisgender women who don’t have a uterus, so you have to slice even deeper to “has a Y chromosome” versus “doesn’t have a Y chromosome.” Even discounting folks who have genetic disorders you’re now dealing with microscopic things that have nothing to do with how we live our lives day to day. What does a Y chromosome even do? It promotes the growth of glands that produce various hormones, which can be replaced. It promotes the growth of various physical structures, which can be surgically altered. What it does not do is control how we think, or behave, or conduct ourselves day to day on this earth. That is a choice we make, and we should be allowed to make that choice with dignity and have that choice be respected by our peers. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/126 "2022-09-01T00:01:59Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > So, on that topic (not to you specifically), I see that I have now been mod-noted for referring to a person with a penis as “male”. Apparently “male” and “female” have now joined “man” and “woman” as terms which are considered on this board to apply to gender identity, not biological sex. > > This is interesting, since it’s less than six months since I was admonished that “no-one is saying that sex isn’t real”. So - sex is “real” and yet all the terms that distinguish people on the basis of biological sex are now being transferred over to gender identity distinctions instead? I think it’s just that everybody’s tired of hearing your fucking mouth run. Your brinkmanship bullshit is for the birds. ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/127 "2022-09-01T00:09:07Z")
My birth certificate (1965) says female, I have female genitalia, I also have a deep voice, negligible breasts and have lost count of the number of times I have been threatened for being in a public restroom. At my local pool I was asked to use a family changeroom by myself as everyone got so sick of the complaints about me being in the right place. Nobody has ever believed me when I have told them I am a woman when accused of not being one. That statement is simply ridiculous. As I have aged and become ill and easy pickings my solution is to try to avoid public conveniences at all costs. I will dehydrate myself in to migraines because it is safer than being in enclosed space with someone worked up. I don’t drive due to epilepsy, try spending a day on public transport without using a public loo. If I ever do desperately have a need I’ll stake it out until I believe it empty and if someone enters while I’m there I’ll wait them out. It impacts terribly on my life and TERFs don’t give a flying fuck that people like me are sacrificed for their fictional scenarios. Women are now looking for men in every bathroom and when they think they have found one they are brutal. Thanks ever so much. Don’t tell me to wear a dress, last time I tried that I was beaten up for being “in drag”. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/128 "2022-09-01T00:21:48Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Your brinkmanship bullshit is for the birds. But not for the penguins or the emus. Everyone knows that birds have wings and can fly. Penguins might arguably have wings, but they sure as shit can’t fly with them. And don’t even get me started on the emus: they have _no place_ in a bird sanctuary. Those things exist to create a sanctuary _for birds_ which, as any kindergarten student who hasn’t been corrupted by WOKE politics will tell you, _can fly_. I FUCKING HATE EMUS AND PENGUINSDWCQD OIN,!! ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/129 "2022-09-01T00:26:11Z")
That’s fucking awful. I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/130 "2022-09-01T00:37:43Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > But not for the penguins or the emus. Heh! Here’s another nomenclature I saw proposed on an (IRL) acquaintance’s text thread (hence no link): - Cisgender women: “Purebloods”. The people entitled to be in control of and police their community. The only people entitled to be called “women”. - Cisgender men: “Muggles”. Tolerated if kept at a distance and separate from the Purebloods. - Transgender women: “Mudbloods”. Dangerously contaminating because born from and raised as Muggles, must not be allowed to soil Pureblood community with their presence. Demonization, ostracism and physical assault may be used. - Transgender men: “Squibs”. Pathetically maladapted to their essential Pureblood nature, frequently self-exile to live among Muggles. Generally despised by Purebloods. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/131 "2022-09-01T00:39:11Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > She should say “This is a space for female bodies, and my body is female”. Then Woman A would say “Oh, sorry, I made a mistake” and they would both go about their business. You are out of your fucking mind. ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/132 "2022-09-01T00:45:04Z")
Thanks, it has always happened now and then but when I was younger and stronger I didn’t have to worry so much except for the boyfriend waiting outside but that space being more public was protective. If security was called in they’d leave me alone after an ID check. It’s hard getting old and vulnerable, I don’t recommend it. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/133 "2022-09-01T00:49:19Z")
> [@Thylacine](#): > > It’s hard getting old and vulnerable, I don’t recommend it. Better than the alternative. Be well. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/134 "2022-09-01T01:13:49Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > She should say “This is a space for female bodies, and my body is female”. Now I’m ever so curious to learn exactly how you are defining ‘female body’… 'Cause I’m not seeing how that in any way solves your problem. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/135 "2022-09-01T01:43:37Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > OTOH, as **Prichester** stated, would the claim or ask then be to have any form of misgendering or transdenialism become _officially_ defined as _ **per se** _ “hate speech”, as opposed to just ignorant or rude? Women and girls no longer have the right to yell for help if a naked man makes use of the women’s locker room. It’s considered bigotry to act on the assumption that the penis-owning person standing in front of you is actually a man rather than a woman occupying a man’s body. It is considered hate speech just for me to post this comment, presumably because I’m asserting the possibility that a man could still be a man in the women’s locker room. Failing to pretend that men magically transmute into women as soon as they enter the room is a hate crime. I’m left wondering what I’m supposed to be advising my daughters to do when they are old enough to use public facilities on their own. No one has been able to give me a good answer to this question. If I tell them to immediately flee and get help if they spot a man in the restroom, will I be setting them up for public shaming for “gender profiling”? But if I don’t tell them to do that and something [like this situation happens](https://www.valleynewslive.com/2022/08/22/gf-man-arrested-charged-attempting-assault-woman-bathroom/), then have I failed to adequately prepare for this world? A world where men do really fucked up things to women every day, and often get away with it? Again, no one has been able to answer this question for me. It’s transphobic to even contemplate it, apparently. Even though I’m talking about men, somehow no one can engage questions about men and women anymore. It has to be more than that, and women can’t let their concerns about male violence be heard without being silenced (which I’m betting the mods will once again do to me). 2022 is the most misogynistic year on record in my generation’s lifetime. It is actually a toss up between which side of the aisle is worse right now. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/136 "2022-09-01T01:46:54Z")
(checks that we ARE in the Pit) That was one splendid pile of bullshit there. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/137 "2022-09-01T01:48:02Z")
Probability of being a sock approaches 100% ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/138 "2022-09-01T01:50:32Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It is actually a toss up between which side of the aisle is worse right now. Yeah, one side stripped you of your right to choose, and the other side won’t let you maliciously victimize a vulnerable minority. They’re basically the same! ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/139 "2022-09-01T01:54:44Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > It is considered hate speech just for me to post this comment Reported for hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/140 "2022-09-01T01:56:19Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I’m left wondering what I’m supposed to be advising my daughters to do when they are old enough to use public facilities on their own. No one has been able to give me a good answer to this question. ~~Aspidistra~~ YWTF, which public facilities should this individual use? [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Buckangel_cowboy.JPG/1200px-Buckangel_cowboy.JPG) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Buckangel_cowboy.JPG/1200px-Buckangel_cowboy.JPG) No one has been able to give me a good answer to this question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=8)