# Pronouns and idiot fascists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2022, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369 "2022-08-26T01:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/161 "2022-09-01T10:52:38Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > By that logic, Aspergers Syndrome is also a made up disorder Well, considering that it’s no longer considered a valid diagnosis and has been stricken from the DSM… > **[Asperger syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome)** > > Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome, formerly described a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication combined with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. The syndrome has been merged with other disorders into autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and is no longer considered a stand-alone diagnosis. It was considered to differ from other diagnoses that were merged i The syndrome ... BTW, you still haven’t told us which bathroom Buck Angel belongs in. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/162 "2022-09-01T10:59:14Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > that is the only thing that is binary Sex is not binary, you stupid fuck. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/163 "2022-09-01T11:03:36Z")
Oh, that’s a photo of Buck Angel? He has a vagina, Aspidistra. He was assigned female at birth, but is a trans man. He has posed for some very sexy photos, including ones that show what’s between his legs. And I’m pretty sure he uses the men’s room, and that choice makes the people around him happier. Anecdotally, most of the trans and non-binary people i know who look masculine, including those who identity as women, use the men’s room and hide in the stalls when they do so. They feel they are least likely to upset other people that way. One, who is “gender non-conforming” and has a fully male body and uses male pronouns, but dresses in feminine things, is often politely told he’s in the wrong bathroom. He replies, “I’m sorry, but there really isn’t a right bathroom for me.” He’s lobbying his employer for fewer gang bathrooms and more unisex single-user bathrooms, instead. (the employer is shopping for new space, and will likely build something, so this is a feasible request.) Relevant to my anecdote: i live in a place where trans people have a legal right to use the bathroom of their choice, and hang out in places where they mostly aren’t hassled over that. So these friends are making an unforced choice. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/164 "2022-09-01T11:07:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Aspidistra](#): > > > > that is the only thing that is binary > > Sex is not binary, you stupid fuck. That was gonna be my next post. Yeah, people’s physical sex is bimodal, with a lot of people having physical characteristics that cluster around “male” or “female”, but it’s not binary. And the people in between still need to use restrooms, and maybe even change clothes at the gym. Any “solution” that relies on neatly slotting every human into “male” or “female” in some purely objective way is broken. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/165 "2022-09-01T11:58:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > ignoring the case where the trans person did exactly what they suggest… and still got assaulted. I’m compelled to believe that this is a feature, not a bug. They’ll trade 100 transwomen getting beaten up to save 1 ciswoman from getting the vapors. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/166 "2022-09-01T12:47:58Z")
Is “Gender Critical” the new “Race Realist”? Because there’s a very similar feel to the two approaches. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m compelled to believe that this is a feature, not a bug. They’ll trade 100 transwomen getting beaten up to save 1 ciswoman from getting the vapors. Or they’ll claim 1 ciswoman got the vapors in order to justify 100 transwomen getting beaten up. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/167 "2022-09-01T13:35:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Is “Gender Critical” the new “Race Realist”? Because there’s a very similar feel to the two approaches. Gender critical is another name for TERF. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/168 "2022-09-01T13:44:38Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > However, in any case at all where there is a need for binary classification it must run on sex, since that is the only thing that is binary, objective, and observable. As **MrDribble** says, sex is not binary or objective, as indicated by the example **IvoryTowerDenizen** gave above. It’s also not observable, at least not in polite society. The only logical restroom for someone with a beard to use, based on easily observable characteristics, is the men’s room. But you’d rather them use the women’s room based on flawed reasoning. Thus normalizing people with beards in the women’s room, which is the sort of societal uncertainty you claim to want to eliminate. You’re either OK with checking genitalia at restroom doors, or you’re OK with bearded people being allowed, unquestioned, in women’s rooms. Which is it? Arguing with TERFs or transphobes or “Gender Critical People” is pointless because you’re coming from a disingenuous place. You don’t actually want people with beards to use the women’s room. You actually just want them to go away. But you know you can’t say “trans people shouldn’t be allowed to exist in public” because that’s blatantly transphobic, so instead you make up these nonsensical rules that they should follow in the hope that they get so brow-beaten by transphobia that they eventually stop reminding you that they exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/169 "2022-09-01T13:52:19Z")
Getting back to the actual topic of Pronouns and Idiot Fascists… > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Okay, listen, I understand that patriot think Christian is making a great point by telling me what patriot considers Christian’s pronouns to be, but really it just shows that patriot don’t understand what a pronoun is. Are Christian wanting me to use those words for second-person pronouns, or only third person pronouns? If the former, Christian is asking for something far more than anyone nonbinary/trans person ever has and needs to explain the benefit. If the latter, Patriot is trying very hard to conceal Christian’s gender in a way that’s going to distract anyone talking about Patriot. So, Christian, tell me what Patriot want to do.” Where’s that damned “like” button? Scratch that, where’s the “love” button? > [@Icarus](#): > > Which is kinda strange to me, as the dynamics of stoking outrage for votes seems unnecessary. Those voters are going to vote for the GOP anyway. Do they think they will harvest enough fence sitters to their side, minus the LGBT+ voters going the other way? Odd calculus. I don’t think it’s recruiting new voters, it’s more about keeping the existing voters. You have to keep them outraged at _something_, or they’ll slink back to indifference. Roe has been overturned; gotta find a new boogie man to keep the masses outraged. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I confess, I’m hoping that Mx catches on. Ms did. Mx solves even more problems. Or, how about we call them Chris? Or Pat? Or whatever their name is, instead of forcing a title on them anyway? It does appear that we as a society are becoming less gender specific. Yeah, the old farts complain about “wait staff” or “mail persons”, but many of the gendered job titles really are going away. Slowly. There have been a few awards shows that have removed gender-specific awards, for example. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/170 "2022-09-01T13:53:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > As **MrDribble** says, sex is not binary or objective, as indicated by the example **IvoryTowerDenizen** gave above. I’m no biologist, but my layman’s understanding is that even people with intersex conditions are still either male or female. They’re either male with some female sex characteristics, or female with some male sex characteristics. Is that not the case? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/171 "2022-09-01T13:57:49Z")
Male and female are just human created categories. It’s as subjective as red and blue. Red with a little bit of blue is a purple, and blue with a little bit of red is also a purple. If you want to put them in the red or the blue buckets that’s a subjective call that you’re making. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/172 "2022-09-01T14:03:04Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Gender critical is another name for TERF. I think it’s a more accurate term, because, while it could be potentially _more_ accurate because it doesn’t describe _how_ they are critical of gender, the majority of them are not actually “Radical Feminists.” Which isn’t to say that there aren’t radical feminists who are TERFs, it’s just not very many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/173 "2022-09-01T14:04:54Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > But you know you can’t say “trans people shouldn’t be allowed to exist in public” because that’s blatantly transphobic, so instead you make up these nonsensical rules that they should follow in the hope that they get so brow-beaten by transphobia that they eventually stop reminding you that they exist. My own elderly mother, a lifelong champion of acceptance and tolerance has gone down this path (and other paths I never expected) in the last two years of COVID isolation with EWTN and Fox News constantly on, and social media messages from pious Catholics. She admitted to me that she thought the best “solution” for “confused people” is “perhaps” to kill themselves. A pro-life Catholic who espouses suicide as a way out because she can’t get herself to admit that she really wants genocide. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/174 "2022-09-01T14:07:34Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Is that not the case? No, that is not always the case. But even if it were the case, what you’ve just described is _not_ binary. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/175 "2022-09-01T14:09:48Z")
Here’s the thing as I see it: People who “present” masculine will 99+% if the time want to be and will fit in “men’s” spaces and do their business in peace there. People who “present” feminine will 99+% of the time want to be and will fit in “women’s” spaces and do their business there in peace. “Effeminate” cismales and “butch” cisfemales have ALWAYS existed and nobody seemed to have a problem with them until relatively recently, when apparently any girl or woman who is too athletic will be challenged to prove she’s XX. I fail to understand what’s the panic. Then again a couple of years ago an IRL acquaintance essentially said, JR, I’m sorry, but because you don’t gave a daughter and I do, your opinion IS worth less to me, and he knows it’s not rational but to him it’s **right** for parents to not be rational about this. So… ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/176 "2022-09-01T14:10:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Male and female are just human created categories. It’s as subjective as red and blue. Red with a little bit of blue is a purple, and blue with a little bit of red is also a purple. If you want to put them in the red or the blue buckets that’s a subjective call that you’re making. I thought it all boiled down to whether your body produces sperm cells or egg cells. So, if you produce sperm cells (or if you _would_ produce them were it not for an intersex condition), then you’re male, and if you produce egg cells, or _would_ produce them were it not for an intersex condition, then you’re female. But nobody is _neither_ male or female. Again, not a biologist, but that seems like it would be an objective distinction which can always be made. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/177 "2022-09-01T14:10:51Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > > Gender critical is another name for TERF. > > I think it’s a more accurate term, because, while it could be potentially _more_ accurate because it doesn’t describe _how_ they are critical of gender, the majority of them are not actually “Radical Feminists.” Which isn’t to say that there aren’t radical feminists who are TERFs, it’s just not very many of them. TERFs literally adopted the descriptor gender critical once people started calling them TERFs. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/178 "2022-09-01T14:10:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, that is not always the case. But even if it were the case, what you’ve just described is _not_ binary. What would it be? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/179 "2022-09-01T14:13:00Z")
Who’s defining the categories this way? And if someone’s defining the categories, isn’t that subjective? Do _I_ have to accept those definitions? eta: It’s a tautology. You’re starting with 2 categories as an absolute truth and then coming up with definitions to force everyone into one of those 2 categories. But why are you starting with 2 categories? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/180 "2022-09-01T14:16:59Z")
Because complexity is hard for idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369.md?page=10)