# Pronunciation of a proper noun that ends with an S, in it's possessive form **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 15, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154 "2010-04-15T01:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/1 "2010-04-15T01:56:55Z")
Lois’ blanket. Thomas’ Book. Jesus’ followers. Does the apostrophe at the end of the above names take the place of the letters ES? I pronounce the missing ES at the end of the names: Loises blanket, Thomases book, Jesuses followers; and would do the same with any other names that end with S. My father-in-law says I’m incorrect. He says the ES should not be used: Lois blanket, Thomas book, Jesus followers. Please settle our dinner time debate, Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/2 "2010-04-15T02:06:21Z")
Your way is the only way I have ever heard others say it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/3 "2010-04-15T02:19:53Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > Lois’ blanket. Thomas’ Book. Jesus’ followers. To start off with, this is not the traditional way to form such possessives. The Chicago Manual of Style and most other style guides recommend forming most possessives, even those ending with “s”, with an apostophe + s: Lois’s blanket. Thomas’s book. Jesus’s followers. However, practice varies. Many style guides allow dropping the “s” in the case of names with many syllables, and in the case of some Biblical names like Moses and Jesus. Some writers do so in all cases. In my experience, following the traditional spelling, in most such possessives the “s” is pronounced: Loises, Thomases, Jesuses. From [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe) > [@](#): > > This subsection deals with singular nouns pronounced with a sibilant sound at the end: /s/ or /z/. The spelling of these ends with -s, -se, -z, -ze, -ce, -x, or -xe. > > Many respected sources have required that practically all singular nouns, including those ending with a sibilant sound, have possessive forms with an extra s after the apostrophe. Examples include the Modern Language Association and The Economist.[14] Such sources would demand possessive singulars like these: Senator Jones’s umbrella; Mephistopheles’s cat. On the other hand, some modern writers omit the extra s in all cases, and Chicago Manual of Style allows this as an “alternative practice”.[15] Generally, Chicago Manual of Style is in line with the majority of current guides, and recommends the traditional practice but provides for several exceptions to accommodate spoken usage, including the omission of the extra s after a polysyllabic word ending in a sibilant.[16] ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/4 "2010-04-15T03:01:31Z")
I’ve heard of the exception for Biblical and classical figures, but I find that it really is only used in stock phrases such as “Jesus’ sake” and “In Jesus’ name we pray, amen.” (This is almost completely irrelevant, but an interesting and analogical highlight: I found out that in German, they apparently use the _Latin_ genitive with certain religious names instead of the German one, at least in certain fixed phrases, such as _Christi Geburt_ (the birth of Christ) rather than _Christs Geburt_ or _Mariä_ (for the Latin _Mariæ_) _Himmelfahrt_ (the assumption of Mary). The normal genitive would be used for other women named Maria.) I’ve certainly never come across any authoritative source suggesting that pronouncing the possessive with an ordinary schmo’s name (Charles’s dog, Burns’s suit) is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/5 "2010-04-15T04:24:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Lois’s blanket. Thomas’s book. Jesus’s followers. This is the way I was taught, since the second “s” is pronounced as an additional letter. ---
**Author:** ![bardos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bardos/32/1069_2.png) [@bardos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bardos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/6 "2010-04-15T05:15:41Z")
written: both forms are correct spoken: the “es” sound added is the norm. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/7 "2010-04-15T05:40:03Z")
If you don’t say the “es” it is not going to be apparent that it is a possessive. Clarity, as well as custom, demands that you pronounce it. (Anyway, isn’t it a law of nature that fathers-in-law are always wrong?) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/8 "2010-04-15T05:42:46Z")
Just popping in to say that you misused “it’s” in your title. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/9 "2010-04-15T07:43:56Z")
My experience is that the s followed by an apostrophe is pronounced longer, and is not voiced before a vowel or voiced consonant, unlike one preceded by an apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/10 "2010-04-15T19:29:49Z")
himmelfahrt???!! goodness german is a funny language. i’m gonna suggest this to a friend who is trying to stop using profanity. does that translate out to heaven-fast? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/11 "2010-04-15T19:54:22Z")
I agree that it should be written Thomas’s and pronounced as such. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/12 "2010-04-15T19:57:30Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > himmelfahrt???!! goodness german is a funny language. i’m gonna suggest this to a friend who is trying to stop using profanity. > > does that translate out to heaven-fast? I think “Heaven-driven”. Think _Fahr_vergnügen. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/13 "2010-04-15T20:02:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I think “Heaven-driven”. Think _Fahr_vergnügen. No – “Fahrt” means “journey” in German. “Himmelfahrt” literally means “journey to Heaven”. ---
**Author:** ![GregH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@GregH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GregH)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/14 "2010-04-15T20:08:22Z")
I agree with the majority, but still think that it looks funny to write: Bess’s blanket, and it sounds funny to pronounce: Jesus’s beard. -Greg ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/15 "2010-04-15T20:13:24Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > No – “Fahrt” means “journey” in German. “Himmelfahrt” literally means “journey to Heaven”. Every time I try to translate something based on my very meager knowledge of a foreign language vocabulary, I have greater sympathy for some of our clients’…interesting…grasp of English… ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/16 "2010-04-15T21:30:35Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > Pronunciation of a proper noun that ends with an S, in it’s possessive form While we are at it: **it’s** = it is, it has **its** = that which belongs to it _in its possessive form_ ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/17 "2010-04-15T21:59:28Z")
The rule I read recently - yes, you add the " 's" and pronounce the extra “S” as if it were an additional “es”, if that’s the way the plural is pronounced. Lois’s pronounced “Loises”. “There were five Loises in a row on the catwalk.” The exception, I read, is worded that already end with an “es” sound - the prominent one being “Jesus”. It’s grammatically best to say “Jesus’ book” as “Jee-zuz boo-k”. The possessive is understood - we hope. Can’t think of a similar “uz” word that would otherwise be wrongly pronuonced “…zuz-zuz”. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/18 "2010-04-15T22:07:35Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Can’t think of a similar “uz” word that would otherwise be wrongly pronuonced “…zuz-zuz”. Moses. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/19 "2010-04-15T22:11:34Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The rule I read recently - yes, you add the " 's" and pronounce the extra “S” as if it were an additional “es”, if that’s the way the plural is pronounced. > > Lois’s pronounced “Loises”. “There were five Loises in a row on the catwalk.” > > The exception, I read, is worded that already end with an “es” sound - the prominent one being “Jesus”. It’s grammatically best to say “Jesus’ book” as “Jee-zuz boo-k”. The possessive is understood - we hope. Can’t think of a similar “uz” word that would otherwise be wrongly pronuonced “…zuz-zuz”. I say “Jee-zuss” with an “s,” not a “z” sound at the end. As for similar words, “Prius” (e.g. the “Prius’s bumper.”) If you want the voiced sibilant, how about “missus”? As in “that’s the missus’s car.” I definitely pronounce the possessive “s” in all cases. It sounds weird to me not to. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/20 "2010-04-15T23:12:30Z")
the way that i learned it in both MD and VA public schools(not that it’s the ultimate authority or anything) was that you tack on the 's for proper nouns e.g. keeping up with the Jones’s. however if the word isn’t a proper noun and ends in ‘s’ then you do the s’. i did enough rote busywork to know this for a fact and do not need a cite. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154.md?page=2)