# Pronunciation of a proper noun that ends with an S, in it's possessive form **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 15, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154 "2010-04-15T01:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/21 "2010-04-15T23:19:13Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > the way that i learned it in both MD and VA public schools(not that it’s the ultimate authority or anything) was that you tack on the 's for proper nouns e.g. keeping up with the Jones’s. > > however if the word isn’t a proper noun and ends in ‘s’ then you do the s’. i did enough rote busywork to know this for a fact and do not need a cite. Odd. S-apostrophe is generally only reserved for plurals. Words like “walrus” and “altas” and the such should all get the apostrophe-s, at least according to every style manual I’ve ever seen. “Waitress,” “strewardess,” and the such usually get apostrophe-s, but I do know of one, frankly bizarre, exception. AP Style treats those as getting the apostrophe-s, unless the next word begins with “s.” Therefore, “waitress’s uniform,” but “waitress’ smile.” The latter looks all kinds of wrong to me, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/22 "2010-04-16T03:15:59Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > the way that i learned it in both MD and VA public schools(not that it’s the ultimate authority or anything) was that you tack on the 's for proper nouns e.g. keeping up with the Jones’s. The example you give is wrong – it’s _keeping up with the Joneses_, plural, not _Jones’s_, possessive, or _Joneses’_, plural possessive. It may just be a poor choice of example, since we’re talking about possessives, not plural. Apostrophe-s is _never_ used to indicate the plural (except in very rare and odd cases such as the plurals of letters (p’s and q’s)). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/23 "2010-04-16T03:20:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Odd. S-apostrophe is generally only reserved for plurals. Oh, and lest there be any confusion, I mean the possessive of plurals. ---
**Author:** ![bahimes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@bahimes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahimes)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/24 "2010-04-16T07:50:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, and lest there be any confusion, I mean the possessive of plurals. When in England, I always have a couple pints of Banks Ale, but the barmaid always gives me “Banks’s” (Bankses).😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/25 "2010-04-16T14:13:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Odd. S-apostrophe is generally only reserved for plurals. Words like “walrus” and “altas” and the such should all get the apostrophe-s, at least according to every style manual I’ve ever seen. “Waitress,” “strewardess,” and the such usually get apostrophe-s, but I do know of one, frankly bizarre, exception. AP Style treats those as getting the apostrophe-s, unless the next word begins with “s.” Therefore, “waitress’s uniform,” but “waitress’ smile.” The latter looks all kinds of wrong to me, but there it is. The Chicago Manual agrees with this one. It’s the same rule everyone else is mentioning: if you say /-ez/ or /-es/, you should write the s. If you don’t, you don’t. When there are a couple of -s- sounds in a row (the waitresszsmile) and the sounds run together and you don’t really say the 's as an extra sound, therefore you don’t write it. Of course, in my head, it’s wait-ress-iz-smile, and the example looks / sounds wrong to me, too, but it’s hard to second-guess your own speech patterns. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/26 "2010-04-16T14:44:39Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The Chicago Manual agrees with this one. It’s the same rule everyone else is mentioning: if you say /-ez/ or /-es/, you should write the s. If you don’t, you don’t. When there are a couple of -s- sounds in a row (the waitresszsmile) and the sounds run together and you don’t really say the 's as an extra sound, therefore you don’t write it. > > Of course, in my head, it’s wait-ress-iz-smile, and the example looks / sounds wrong to me, too, but it’s hard to second-guess your own speech patterns. I’d be really surprised if there’s a lot of people who don’t pronounce the possessive-s in “waitress’s smile.” I assumed the AP rule was just some quirk that four esses in a row look funky. The only instance I could think of where I don’t pronounce the possessive-s is in fixed expressions like “goodness’ sake” Apparently, according to [this](http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm), there are style guides that don’t even like three esses in a row: > [@](#): > > According to the New York Public Library’s Guide to Style and Usage, there are “certain expressions that end in s or the s sound that traditionally require an apostrophe only: for appearance’ sake, for conscience’ sake, for goodness’ sake” (268). **Incidentally, the NYPL Guide also suggests that when a word ends in a double s, we’re better off writing its possessive with only an apostrophe: the boss’ memo, the witness’ statement.** ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/27 "2010-04-16T14:49:42Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > To start off with, this is not the traditional way to form such possessives. The Chicago Manual of Style and most other style guides recommend forming most possessives, even those ending with “s”, with an apostophe + s: > > Lois’s blanket. Thomas’s book. Jesus’s followers. > > However, practice varies. Many style guides allow dropping the “s” in the case of names with many syllables, and in the case of some Biblical names like Moses and Jesus. Some writers do so in all cases. Actually, Chicago specifically excepts Biblical and ancient names ending in S (Jesus’, Xerxes’) and a few others (ends in a silent “s”: Camus’). To answer the OP’s question, though, I’ll admit that when I’m speaking, rather than writing, I’ll _say_ “Jesuses [followers].” ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/28 "2010-04-16T16:20:40Z")
[A previous thread on a similar issue](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=516918) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/29 "2010-04-16T16:30:10Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > the way that i learned it in both MD and VA public schools(not that it’s the ultimate authority or anything) was that you tack on the 's for proper nouns e.g. keeping up with the Jones’s. You mean “Keeping up with the Joneses.” That phrase means “keeping up with the people named Jones,” making Jones a plural, so it would be “Joneses.” The POSSESSIVE of Jones is Jones’s; “That is Mr. Jones’s car.” As my last name is Jones, this is important to me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/30 "2010-04-16T16:33:16Z")
Keeping up with the Joneses’s possession-saturated lifestyles? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/31 "2010-04-16T19:01:16Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > Keeping up with the Joneses’s possession-saturated lifestyles? No, in that case, single apostrophe: “Keeping up with the Joneses’ possession-saturated lifestyles.” Joneses is plural, and plural possessives get the single apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154/32 "2010-04-16T21:07:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > No, in that case, single apostrophe: “Keeping up with the Joneses’ possession-saturated lifestyles.” Joneses is plural, and plural possessives get the single apostrophe. Drat! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-a-proper-noun-that-ends-with-an-s-in-its-possessive-form/536154.md?page=1)