# Pronunciation of non-English words in old movies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 27, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026 "2021-11-27T14:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/21 "2021-11-29T19:55:34Z")
Thought so. Thanks. I wonder if it was the same with “suspects” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/22 "2021-11-29T21:46:57Z")
In _ **The Great Race** _, Leslie (Tony Curtis) says “The auto-MO-beel represents PRO-gress, in the most profound sense of the word.” I wonder if his pronunciation was a product of the times or his humble NYC background? In one episode of _ **Star Trek** _, Kirk (William Shatner) says “The best defense is a strong O-fense.” Is this a common Canadian pronunciation? I wonder how many examples like these are just idiosyncrasies of the actors and have nothing to do with their origins? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/23 "2021-11-29T21:59:30Z")
Nitpick: **Rodeo** ([/ˈroʊdioʊ, rəˈdeɪoʊ/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)) is pronounced Roh-Deh-Oh in Spanish. It means many [different things](https://dle.rae.es/rodeo?m=form), but mainly a detour. > [@terentii](#): > > I told him they [the Germans] probably use it as a loan word and say “ro-DAY-oh.”. A logical assumption; I hope I was right. Germans use the loan word, but they pronounce it more Spanish than English. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/24 "2021-11-29T22:26:04Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Nitpick: **Rodeo** ([/ˈroʊdioʊ, rəˈdeɪoʊ/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)) is pronounced Roh-Deh-Oh in Spanish. It means many [different things](https://dle.rae.es/rodeo?m=form), but mainly a detour. I see from the schwa that the first vowel is not stressed at all. Interesting. I need to go back and review my high school Spanish! 😧 ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/25 "2021-11-29T22:27:50Z")
Indeed: the stressed vowel is the “e”. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/26 "2021-11-29T22:33:58Z")
Am I correct in assuming it’s “_das_ Rodeo” in German? (I know, I could look it up, but I just like talking about languages.) ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/27 "2021-11-29T22:34:36Z")
Yeah, you’re right, it’s das Rodeo. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/28 "2021-11-29T22:37:44Z")
You are not completely right (sorry, **EinsteinsHund** , I have a link): both _das_ Rodeo and _der_ Rodeo are correct: > **[Rodeo](https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Rodeo)** > > Definition, Rechtschreibung, Synonyme und Grammatik von 'Rodeo' auf Duden online nachschlagen. Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/29 "2021-11-29T22:38:21Z")
Danke schön! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/30 "2021-11-29T22:40:15Z")
Noch einmal! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/31 "2021-11-29T22:40:21Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > You are not completely right (sorry, **Einsteinshund** , I have a link): both das Rodeo and der Rodeo are correct: Well, it’s the Duden, and I bow to its expertise, but I’ve never heard der Rodeo in the wild. And I would correct everybody who used it, I’m that kind of person. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/32 "2021-11-29T22:44:18Z")
I have always wondered why a private publishing company like der Duden thinks they have the authority to define what is right and what is wrong in German, that is appropriation in my book, but there you go. They get away with it. I also thought it was _das_ Rodeo, but I checked just in case (I am _that_ kind of person too 😁) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/33 "2021-11-29T22:57:30Z")
IIRC, most (if not all) loan words in German are neuter. Though I suspect it depends on when they were incorporated into the language (e.g., pre- vs. post-WWII). Russian is weird. In most cases, you can tell the gender of a noun from its ending. There are, however, some exceptions that I suspect even most Russians can’t explain. F’rinstance, _salyami_ should be neuter, but it isn’t. It’s feminine because it’s a type of sausage (_kolbasa_). _Kofe_ should also be neuter, but it isn’t. It’s masculine, presumably because it’s a beverage (_napitok_). I’m sure there are other examples, but these are the first two that come to my mind. They’re also both loan words (from Italian and Arabic, respectively). ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/34 "2021-11-29T23:03:47Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Russian is weird. In most cases, you can tell the gender of a noun from its ending. There are, however, some exceptions that I suspect even most Russians can’t explain. That’s the only explanation I have for that seemingly, der Rodeo is ok in German, because -o is a “masculine” ending, like -a is feminine (but of course not always, that’s the way languages are). ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/35 "2021-11-29T23:06:14Z")
Interesting. Shall we open a new thread tomorrow? I have to go to bed now, but those are the things I can speculate about forever. Salami is feminine in German and Hungarian, where Russian probably took it from, but it is masculine in Italian, where it is called [salame](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salame), which is closer to Latin. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/36 "2021-11-29T23:09:06Z")
Also, Russian nouns that end in a soft sign are usually feminine, but not always. Some are masculine, and (as in German) you have to memorize the gender at the same time you learn the word. I’d love to have a thread devoted to languages. I too could go on forever! ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/38 "2021-11-29T23:12:54Z")
Right; that was clarified above. Still, what I wrote is closer to the original than the way most Americans pronounce the word. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/39 "2021-11-29T23:45:37Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I have always wondered why a private publishing company like der Duden thinks they have the authority to define what is right and what is wrong in German, that is appropriation in my book, but there you go. They get away with it. Right, we need something like the _Académie française_ to decide what is and isn’t correct German. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/40 "2021-11-30T00:36:59Z")
The matter of which genders various languages use, how they mark for gender, and which parts of speech they mark for gender is very complicated. You might start by reading the Wikipedia entry on this. This is an important enough subject that there are entire linguistics textbooks analyzing the different ways that various languages handle this topic: > **[Grammatical gender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > In linguistics, grammatical gender system is a specific form of noun class system, where nouns are assigned with gender categories that are often not related to their real-world qualities. In languages with grammatical gender, most or all nouns inherently carry one value of the grammatical category called gender; the values present in a given language (of which there are usually two or three) are called the genders of that language. > Whereas some ... ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2021, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026/41 "2021-11-30T02:25:39Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > that is appropriation in my book How is that appropriation? All publishers set their own house rules. Some publishers’ house rules start to gain acceptance from and adoption by outside parties. That’s not appropriation; that’s just market dynamics in the same way that all language is subject to market dynamics. That is, the collective decisions of individuals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-non-english-words-in-old-movies/955026.md?page=3)