# Pronunciation of the letter "x" in Latin and related languages **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 30, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052 "2018-06-30T16:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/21 "2018-07-01T00:13:45Z")
I’m not sure how the title of the song “Los Set Gotxs” from _Llibre Vermell de Montserrat_ is supposed to be pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/22 "2018-07-01T00:20:03Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I’m not sure how the title of the song “Los Set Gotxs” from _Llibre Vermell de Montserrat_ is supposed to be pronounced. In Catalan, “tx” is a digraph, pronounced like English “ch.” So, almost like “gotchas”! ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/23 "2018-07-01T00:27:31Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > In Catalan, “tx” is a digraph, pronounced like English “ch.” So, almost like “gotchas”! Thanks! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/24 "2018-07-02T13:03:52Z")
…although I’m more used to seeing that word spelled _[goigs](http://www.diccionari.cat/lexicx.jsp?GECART=0070487)_… (still pronounced “goch”) In Spanish, “x” is just a pain in the ass. Depending on the origin of the word, it can be the same as the Spanish “j” (_México, Xavier, Oaxaca, Ximénez_) or it can be an “s” (_xilófono_), or it can be “ks” (_ex_-whatever); and then dialectal variations, hypercorrections, confusion with other languages etc. add the possibility of sounding like the English “sh”, or of the “j” moving close to the English “h”. It was well on its way to disappearing but there has been a resurgence, partly due to Ye Olde Spellinge With Ex looking more Olde and therefore classier than the spellings with j or s. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/25 "2018-07-02T13:42:43Z")
Portuguese x nearly always sounds like sh. There was a kiddie host in brazil named Xuxa, which sounds like SHOO-sha. When the x is at the end of the word, an interesting thing happens, where it sounds like “sheesh”. Apex = Uh-PEH-sheesh. \* Why\* that is, I don’t know. It’s always fascinated me, even with the commonalities of some words, how the pronunciation between words in Portuguese and Spanish diverged _drastically_. This happened only around 700 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/26 "2018-07-03T02:35:41Z")
Thanks everybody for the replies, especially to **Johanna** for her in-depth and scholarly analysis of the word roots. > [@Johanna](#): > > The word \*rḗǵs itself is derived from the root [\*reǵ-](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83re%C7%B5-) ‘to move in a straight line; to direct in a straight line, to lead, to rule’ or ‘to straighten’. The vowel lengthening and accenting and the addition of masculine singular declension ending -s turn it into the noun for a leader/ruler. The proto-Indo-European sound of /ǵ/ underwent transformations in IE daughter languages: This made me wonder about the word “ruler”, both in the sense of leader/king, but also the other type of “ruler”, the kind that might be found in a schoolchild’s pencil case. The pencil case ruler is a tool whose essential feature is its straightness, for the purposes of measuring distance and drawing straight lines. Such a tool [has a long history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruler), with the earliest example dating from the 3rd millennium BC, and one can imagine how such a tool may have been used by people continuously since ancient times, in carpentry and other craftwork. So, follow-up questions about the word “ruler”: a) Does the word “ruler”, as in a leader/king, also derive from Proto-Indo-European \*h₃rḗǵs? b) Does the straight measuring rod type of “ruler” - or “rule” as I’ve occasionally heard it called - also derive from PIE \*h₃rḗǵs? Is this directly so, because it’s, in essence, a “straight” thing? Or is it indirectly so, in the sense that, like a king/leader, it brings order to chaos, in this case the chaos of measuring things and gauging straight lines by eye and hand. Or something else altogether? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/27 "2018-07-03T12:14:26Z")
When I took Latin class, we pronounced “x” as “ks”. We did the same with the Church Latin I memorized as an altar boy. It’s not just in “rex”, of course, but in many other words. Significantly, it’s in _Ulixes_, the latinized form of the name of _Odysseus_, hero of the Odyssey. Exactly how they got from Odysseus (actually, _Odysseos_, in transliterated greek) to _Ulixes_ I never did figure out, but it’s from _Ulixes_ that we eventually got _Ulysses_. That might suggest that the “x” is really pronounced like “ss” in this case, although I could still se the “ks” pronunciation being used. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/28 "2018-07-03T14:09:21Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > a) Does the word “ruler”, as in a leader/king, also derive from Proto-Indo-European \*h₃rḗǵs? > > b) Does the straight measuring rod type of “ruler” - or “rule” as I’ve occasionally heard it called - also derive from PIE \*h₃rḗǵs? Is this directly so, because it’s, in essence, a “straight” thing? Or is it indirectly so, in the sense that, like a king/leader, it brings order to chaos, in this case the chaos of measuring things and gauging straight lines by eye and hand. Or something else altogether? Both senses of “rule/ruler” derive from Latin “regula”, meaning the actual tool and also figuratively. That, as well as “rex” and “regere”, comes from the same Proto-Indo-European root \*hreg- described by **Johanna**. So both senses are already there in the proto-language. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/29 "2018-07-03T14:34:08Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > When I took Latin class, we pronounced “x” as “ks”. We did the same with the Church Latin I memorized as an altar boy. > > It’s not just in “rex”, of course, but in many other words. Significantly, it’s in _Ulixes_, the latinized form of the name of _Odysseus_, hero of the Odyssey. Exactly how they got from Odysseus (actually, _Odysseos_, in transliterated greek) to _Ulixes_ I never did figure out, but it’s from _Ulixes_ that we eventually got _Ulysses_. That might suggest that the “x” is really pronounced like “ss” in this case, although I could still se the “ks” pronunciation being used. Lewis & Short suggest that “Ulixes” comes from Etruscan Uluxe or Siculian Οὐλίξης, and that “Ulysses” is due to the influence of " Ὀδυσσεύς", not some mispronunciation of “x”. Loads of Latin words contain an “x”. For example, “ex”. Nix, nox, mox, pix, vix, etc. Church Latin reminds me of von Bielfeld’s colourful comments that it is “…nothing better than a barbarous jargon… What indeed could be expected from this language, at a time when the barbarians had taken possession of all of Europe, but especially of Italy; when the empire of the east was governed by idiots… when the priests and monks were the only men of letters, and were at the same time the most ignorant and futile mortals in the world…” I hope the Church’s grasp of Classical Latin has strengthened since (though [this interview](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21412604) suggests that it hasn’t), but in any case I wouldn’t take it as a pronunciation guide. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/30 "2018-07-03T15:28:02Z")
There’s another “x”-footballer playing in the soccer football World Cup today - Granit Xhaka, of Swiss nationality but Albanian descent. The “x” is pronounced as a soft “j”, between “j” and “sh”. There was also Enver Hoxha, who was Albanian head of state between 1944 and 1985. In both these Albanian cases, the “x” is followed by an “h”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/31 "2018-07-03T15:31:39Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > There’s another “x”-footballer playing in the soccer football World Cup today - Granit Xhaka, of Swiss nationality but Albanian descent. The “x” is pronounced as a soft “j”, between “j” and “sh”. So like a “zh” sound as in “treasure” or something else? ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/32 "2018-07-03T15:42:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So like a “zh” sound as in “treasure” or something else? Well, I’ve heard the name through commentators and suchlike, who may not be the best source pronunciation-wise. Here’s [someone pronouncing Enver Hoxha](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh6dewm6MEE&feature=youtu.be&t=262), and it sounds more like a “j”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/33 "2018-07-03T15:50:27Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Well, I’ve heard the name through commentators and suchlike, who may not be the best source pronunciation-wise. Here’s [someone pronouncing Enver Hoxha](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh6dewm6MEE&feature=youtu.be&t=262), and it sounds more like a “j”. Yeah, to me that sounds like a straight-up regular “j” sound /dʒ/. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/34 "2018-07-03T15:56:21Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > It may be that it’s similar in Spanish - for example, the name of the Spanish footballer Xavi is pronounced as somewhere between “Javi” and “Shavi”. “Shabi” if done by someone who realizes it’s Catalan. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/35 "2018-07-03T16:10:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > “Shabi” if done by someone who realizes it’s Catalan. I think a certain interchangeability between “b” and “v” may also occur in Hindi. For example, raga Vibhas vs Bibhas, Vageshwari vs Bageshwari, or the names Vikram and Bikram, or Vijay and Bijay. Not sure why, as “v” and “b” are pronounced quite differently. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/36 "2018-07-03T17:42:38Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Not sure why, as “v” and “b” are pronounced quite differently. They’re both voiced labial obstruents, so they do actually have quite a bit of similarity. Note also in the Gaelic languages, that a v-or v-type sound is notated by the digraph “bh” and an f- or f-type sound is noted as “ph.” So b/v and p/f are closely related sounds, and are distinguished by adding an “h” to a “b” or “p.” (And, then, the “v” sounds can also blend into “w” sounds, like they often do in Hindi, too.) You’ll find the same sort of pairings in Hebrew letters, too, with the “b” and “v”, “p” and “f” sounds denoted by the same letter (though sometimes distinguished by a dagesh mark.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/37 "2018-07-03T19:18:21Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I think a certain interchangeability between “b” and “v” may also occur in Hindi. For example, raga Vibhas vs Bibhas, Vageshwari vs Bageshwari, or the names Vikram and Bikram, or Vijay and Bijay. Not sure why, as “v” and “b” are pronounced quite differently. > [@pulykamell](#): > > They’re both voiced labial obstruents, so they do actually have quite a bit of similarity. Note also in the Gaelic languages, that a v-or v-type sound is notated by the digraph “bh” and an f- or f-type sound is noted as “ph.” So b/v and p/f are closely related sounds, and are distinguished by adding an “h” to a “b” or “p.” (And, then, the “v” sounds can also blend into “w” sounds, like they often do in Hindi, too.) > > You’ll find the same sort of pairings in Hebrew letters, too, with the “b” and “v”, “p” and “f” sounds denoted by the same letter (though sometimes distinguished by a dagesh mark.) Also, while V in English is a labiodental fricative, in some other languages it’s a bilabial fricative, which makes it only a tiny step away from B, a bilabial plosive. Same with F and P. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/38 "2018-07-03T19:49:42Z")
Part of the problem with the last three posts is that you’re treating the letters b and v as if they were 1. the basis for the sound, instead of being transcriptions, 2. and, as **Acsenray** points out, the same for every one of the transcription systems linked to languages using the Latin alphabet, which isn’t even the only writing system out there. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/39 "2018-07-03T19:59:40Z")
When discussing phonetics, it is always important to remember that [these](https://www.google.es/search?q=marilyn+monroe&safe=active&rlz=1C1GGRV_enES803ES803&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiW5q6l2oPcAhXC6aQKHSNEDmAQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=1067) are not Marilyn Monroe. They are pictures of her. Letters aren’t sounds. They are representations of sounds. Another letter which in Spanish “gets two pronunciations” (strictly speaking, represents two sounds, two different transcriptions) is W: the difference doesn’t have to do with evolution within Spanish, but with the origins of those different words. W for /b/ (as in Wamba) is Germanic (many are Wisigoth, or _visigodas_ if you prefer); the other pronunciation can be transcribed in Spanish as “gu” and usually comes from English (whisky = _[güiski](http://dle.rae.es/?id=JrwSGNr)_). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052/40 "2018-07-03T22:16:04Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > .It was well on its way to disappearing but there has been a resurgence, partly due to Ye Olde Spellinge With Ex looking more Olde and therefore classier than the spellings with j or s. ♪♫ _Ysabel, Ysabel, Perdiste la tu faxa_ ♫♪ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-letter-x-in-latin-and-related-languages/817052.md?page=3)