# Pronunciation of the vowel sounds in "paw" and "bra". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431 "2018-05-01T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/41 "2018-05-02T14:06:46Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Maybe having a consonant after the vowel makes a difference in your dialect. > > Do your pronunciations of the name of the Egyptian sun god “ **Ra** ” and the adjective “ **raw** ” sound the same or different? How about “ **knot** ” and “ **nought** ”? No, those are all different too. I guess I’ve just always pronounced “bra” as if it were spelled “braw”. I also pronounce ma and pa as if they were spelled maw and paw. > [@Jasmine](#): > > Define “the same” Is it paw & braw, or pa and bra? > > In fact, I pose this question to everyone who said they pronounce the words the same. Yeah, paw and braw. It’s the same vowel sound, for me, as taught and taut, which are homophones. Rah-rah, bah, fa la la, would be the other vowel sound, as in tot. I have to say, I can’t recall anyone saying “bra” as in “brassiere” like “rah”. Except for Chicagoans who say all “a” sounds that way. Am I the only one here who pronounces bra like paw, but hasn’t merged cot and caught yet? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/42 "2018-05-02T14:08:16Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Define “the same” Is it paw & braw, or pa and bra? As far as I’m aware, all American speakers who merge these two vowels make them all sound like the vowel _you and I_ hear in “bra”, “knot”, “cot”. And **never** like the vowel _you and I speak & hear_ in “nought” and “caught”. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/43 "2018-05-02T14:13:52Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I also pronounce ma and pa as if they were spelled maw and paw. Me too 🙂 Saying “Ma” as my dialect’s “mah!” reminds me of Michael Keaton in _Johnny Dangerously_ in the scenes where he is addressing his dear old mom. Keaton might have been trying to put on a Brooklynese accent for the role, but his real-life western Pennsylvania upbringing came through with every “Mah!”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/44 "2018-05-02T14:41:40Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > As far as I’m aware, all American speakers who merge these two vowels make them all sound like the vowel _you and I_ hear in “bra”, “knot”, “cot”. And **never** like the vowel _you and I speak & hear_ in “nought” and “caught”. Except that he was posing that question to someone who said he says “paw” and “bra” with the same vowel sound, but who pronounces “cot” and “caught” differently. That confused me also, but I suspect that he says “caught” with a different vowel sound than I use. I can’t imagine someone saying “bra” with the sound I use for “caught.” I don’t think people would know what he was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/45 "2018-05-02T14:47:41Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Except that he was posing that question to someone who said he says “paw” and “bra” with the same vowel sound, but who pronounces “cot” and “caught” differently. Right. His “Pa”, “Ma”, and “bra” are exceptions – some of which I share in my own dialect. They may follow an open-syllable rule of some sort of another … I haven’t done the analysis. For those that do pronounce “cot” and “caught” the same … from the perspective of those of us who pronounce them differently, they pronounce both words like our “cot”. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/46 "2018-05-02T14:53:00Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I can’t imagine someone saying “bra” with the sound I use for “caught.” I don’t think people would know what he was talking about. In conversation, there is no confusion. The differences in vowel quality we are discussing are really quite slight in the grand scheme. My dialect has gotten me into trouble occasionally, though. Way back when, I worked at a pizza delivery joint. We had a special for a **nine** -topping pizza. When I was talking about it on the phone with a customer, she asked me what I meant by “ **non** -toppings” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/47 "2018-05-02T15:10:56Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > In conversation, there is no confusion. The differences in vowel quality we are discussing are really quite slight in the grand scheme. I don’t think in this case it would be - if I said “bra” with the same vowel sound I use for “caught,” I really think people would be puzzled. They could probably figure it out if there were context clues, but on its own I think they wouldn’t know what I was saying (at least those people who don’t have the merger). ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/48 "2018-05-02T16:52:59Z")
Totally distinguishable. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/49 "2018-05-02T20:37:28Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Ma and pa have a bra > > But it’s against the law to saw a paw > > See different! Exactly the same with me. I’m from Philly where even sad and bad don’t rhyme. Nor do ran and fan. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/50 "2018-05-02T21:31:45Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I don’t think in this case it would be - if I said “bra” with the same vowel sound I use for “caught,” I really think people would be puzzled. They could probably figure it out if there were context clues, but on its own I think they wouldn’t know what I was saying (at least those people who don’t have the merger). I would think you’d said [“braw”](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/braw?s=t), perhaps after binge-watching lots of _Outlander_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/51 "2018-05-02T23:52:27Z")
They sound the same to me on [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), too. Obviously there are a lot of regional variations on vowel sounds. And we Canadians luv superfluuous vouwels. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/52 "2018-05-03T06:25:48Z")
I have heard braw instead of bra before. But I just assumed that particular American dialect (not sure where) merged on aw instead of ah. (I’m not using IPA because the exact vowels are too varied for me to be sure I got them right. English orthography is sufficient, I think, given the explanation in this thread.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/53 "2018-05-04T03:54:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sound the same to me. I’m from Northeast Ohio. > [@panache45](#): > > I’m also from NE Ohio. They are very different. I’m born and raised in Cleveland. They are two different vowels. /pɔː/ versus /brɑː/. **manson1972** , I’m surprised by you. We just don’t have that merger in the Western Reserve. This subject always makes me think of Melissa Etheridge’s song “[All the Way to Heaven](https://youtu.be/eKm_LS_sAV4)” where she goes (at 1:29) _I want to find me a bar with a blue light on, Dollar shot specials, a bartender named Dawn_ Because she’s from Leavenworth, Kansas, where the cot/caught merger occurs, you can’t tell if she’s naming her imagined bartender “Dawn” or “Don.” You have to look at the printed lyrics to know. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/54 "2018-05-04T04:17:43Z")
**manson1972** , is your part of Northeast Ohio over toward Massilon or Steubenville? If so, that would explain it. Those are outside the Western Reserve. My Cleveland dialect has its historical roots in Connecticut, which is very unmerged. Northeast Kansas may be a bit ambiguous on [the map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cot-caught_merger.png), but Melissa Etheridge has for many years lived in Los Angeles, which is completely merged. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/55 "2018-05-04T08:52:03Z")
I’m from the UK. To me, Paw = Saw = Poor = Pore = Four. Bra = Car = La (the note that follows Sew) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/56 "2018-05-04T12:45:59Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > **manson1972** , is your part of Northeast Ohio over toward Massilon or Steubenville? If so, that would explain it. Those are outside the Western Reserve. My Cleveland dialect has its historical roots in Connecticut, which is very unmerged. > > Northeast Kansas may be a bit ambiguous on [the map](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cot-caught_merger.png), but Melissa Etheridge has for many years lived in Los Angeles, which is completely merged. I’m originally from Warren. F\*\*\* Massilon! 🙂 And thanks for posting whatever those pronunciation symbols are, but regardless of what they say, ‘bra’ and ‘pa’ sound the same to me. So does “paw” and “paugh” if that was a word. And “caught” and “cot” are the same to me. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/57 "2018-05-04T14:45:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And thanks for posting whatever those pronunciation symbols are, but regardless of what they say, ‘bra’ and ‘pa’ sound the same to me. So does “paw” and “paugh” if that was a word. And “caught” and “cot” are the same to me. It’s interesting to me how you distinguish “pa” and “paw” but merge “cot” and “caught.” I would think that the differences would be equivalent in the two pairs. > [@glee](#): > > To me, Paw = Saw = Poor = Pore = Four. > Bra = Car = La (the note that follows Sew) Now that’s just messed up. I would make just as much sense in my brain to say Paw = You = Bat = Fish. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/58 "2018-05-04T15:14:22Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > It’s interesting to me how you distinguish “pa” and “paw” but merge “cot” and “caught.” I would think that the differences would be equivalent in the two pairs. No, I don’t distinguish them. I probably could have wrote it better. pa = paw = paugh. Same ‘aw’ sound I use for ‘bra’ and ‘rah’ and ‘saw’ ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/59 "2018-05-04T15:29:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Because she’s from Leavenworth, Kansas, where the cot/caught merger occurs, you can’t tell if she’s naming her imagined bartender “Dawn” or “Don.” You have to look at the printed lyrics to know. I have a co-worker named Dawne and her husband’s name is Don. I pronounce them the same. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/60 "2018-05-04T17:20:16Z")
When I first came to the New York area, speaking with my mostly-Southern pronunciations, I got into a conversation that went like this: Her: … and then last summer I worked for a lorrier. Me: What’s a lorrier? Is that like a truck driver? Her: (laughs) How is a lorrier in any way like a truck driver? Me: I dunno. What’s a lorrier? Her: Are you serious? You know, an attorney. Me: Oh, you’re saying _lawyer_, now I get it! Her: I most certainly did _not_ say “low year”, what the heck are you talking about?? LAWYER In NYC region: lɔyɚ From the South: laɔyɚ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=4)