# Pronunciation of the vowel sounds in "paw" and "bra". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431 "2018-05-01T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/61 "2018-05-04T17:49:48Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > While perusing the Wiki article on the English language, under the [vowel section](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Vowels), I noticed that there are different Received Pronunciations for paw and bra. To my American midwestern ear and voice, there is no difference. According to the link for [Open-mid back rounded vowel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel), I guess I’m saying “paw” incorrectly. > > Are they the same or different when you speak them? Poll coming. Lived in the northwest for half my life, the NE the other half. They’re the same to my ear. As an aside, it’s rare to hear a young person in the NE with an obviously distinct regional dialect anymore. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/62 "2018-05-04T18:23:14Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t! It’s just everyone else. OK after all these years, I’m gonna ask. Is your username meant to be “Man, get out!” or the French _mange-tout_ that suggests you are some kind of not-at-all-finicky super-omnivore? ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/63 "2018-05-04T19:18:34Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > When I first came to the New York area, speaking with my mostly-Southern pronunciations, I got into a conversation that went like this: > > Her: … and then last summer I worked for a lorrier. > > Me: What’s a lorrier? Is that like a truck driver? > > Her: (laughs) How is a lorrier in any way like a truck driver? > > Me: I dunno. What’s a lorrier? > > Her: Are you serious? You know, an attorney. > > Me: Oh, you’re saying _lawyer_, now I get it! > > Her: I most certainly did _not_ say “low year”, what the heck are you talking about?? > LAWYER > > In NYC region: lɔyɚ > > From the South: laɔyɚ I’ve lived in New York all my life. I have no idea what you are talking about. _No one_ here says “lorrier” for “lawyer.” 😕 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/64 "2018-05-04T19:55:37Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I’ve lived in New York all my life. I have no idea what you are talking about. _No one_ here says “lorrier” for “lawyer.” 😕 I’m not AHunter3 who told that story, but I’m also a southerner (deeps woods of east Texas), and when I got out into the wider world I noticed that many people pronounced it “loi-yer” for some reason I didn’t get. That to my ear sounds an awful lot like how he spelled “lorrier.” My guess is that that’s what I would hear when you as a New Yorker say the word. That’s not how us southerners say it. We say “law-yer.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/65 "2018-05-04T20:03:41Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’m not AHunter3 who told that story, but I’m also a southerner (deeps woods of east Texas), and when I got out into the wider world I noticed that many people pronounced it “loi-yer” for some reason I didn’t get. That to my ear sounds an awful lot like how he spelled “lorrier.” My guess is that that’s what I would hear when you as a New Yorker say the word. That’s not how us southerners say it. We say “law-yer.” I say “loy-yer” I thought he meant she used a 3-syllable word to say lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/66 "2018-05-04T20:41:35Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’m not AHunter3 who told that story, but I’m also a southerner (deeps woods of east Texas), and when I got out into the wider world I noticed that many people pronounced it “loi-yer” for some reason I didn’t get. That to my ear sounds an awful lot like how he spelled “lorrier.” My guess is that that’s what I would hear when you as a New Yorker say the word. That’s not how us southerners say it. We say “law-yer.” > [@Slash1972](#): > > I say “loy-yer” > > I thought he meant she used a 3-syllable word to say lawyer. I agree with both of you, “loi-yer”/“loy-yer” sound correct. “Lorrier” as in a 3-syllable word with Rs in the middle makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/67 "2018-05-04T20:56:54Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > LAWYER > > In NYC region: lɔyɚ > > From the South: laɔyɚ New Orleanians pronounce “lawyer” exactly as you’ve got it for NYC (except for on-the-money IPA … turn that “y” into a “j” - /'lɔ:jɚ/ or /'lɔj.ɚ/). There are some recognized port-town dialectal similarities between Brooklynese and New Orleanian “Yat” speech. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/68 "2018-05-04T21:34:16Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I agree with both of you, “loi-yer”/“loy-yer” sound correct. “Lorrier” as in a 3-syllable word with Rs in the middle makes no sense. There isn’t _really_ an “r” sound when New Yorkers say “lawyer”. But…well, in my native Southern-inflected tongue, the vowel they (new yorkish people) use for the first syllable _doesn’t occur by itself_, at least very often. (rare exception: “moment”); but it occurs all over the place followed by an “r” sound: sore, ordinary, pour, court, etc. So I was mis-hearing “lorr-yer” when to be fair what they were saying was lɔjɚ – “l”, then the “o” sound from sore but without the r, then “yer”. > [@bordelond](#): > > New Orleanians pronounce “lawyer” exactly as you’ve got it for NYC (except for on-the-money IPA … turn that “y” into a “j” - /'lɔ:jɚ/ or /'lɔj.ɚ/). There are some recognized port-town dialectal similarities between Brooklynese and New Orleanian “Yat” speech. :smack: I know better than to use “y”; it should of course be “j” ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2018, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/69 "2018-05-05T08:21:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m originally from Warren. F\*\*\* Massilon! 🙂 Warren. Yep, almost halfway to Pittsburgh and edging into merger territory. I knew it! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/70 "2018-05-05T13:36:40Z")
For me, they are the same. My dialect is not part of the cot/caught merger, but both words have the the “aw” sound in my dialect (and remember that Chicago has more than one accent/dialect), as in “caught” or, in IPA, /ɔ/. I am also familiar with the “ah” version, of course, but, to me, that’s "brah’ as in an alternate way of saying “bro.” The sentence “ma and pa have a bra” would come out as “mah and pah have a braw” if I were saying it naturally. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/71 "2018-05-05T13:45:47Z")
Also, speaking of Chicago accents above, many of us do the same with the word “Chicago.” If all you know is Bud Swirsky’s Superfans, you might think the Chicago accent says it as “shih-CAAAAAHHHH-go” with an almost exaggerated “ah” sound. And that is true for some Chicago accents. It’s also very common to hear “shih-CAW-go” That’s how the Daleys (mayors) said it–I think that’s how Royko said it,a number of my high school teachers and friends from outside my neighborhood said it that way. So that while we’re not part of the cot/caught merger, sometimes that bare “a” can vary. While I do say “braw,” I did grow up saying “shih-CAH-go” instead of “shih-CAW-go.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/72 "2018-05-07T13:17:35Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Warren. Yep, almost halfway to Pittsburgh and edging into merger territory. I knew it! Shhhhhh! Don’t tell anybody! ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/73 "2018-05-07T22:48:47Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > Bra, paw, law, ha, maw, nah, gah, ta-ta, flaw, awe, jaw, saw… all the same. > > cot, caught, taught, brought, hot, lot, aught, ought, bot, rot… all the same. Same for me~! ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/74 "2018-05-07T23:23:10Z")
Coming out of my mouth, here in central Indiana, paw gets formed with an open mouth, but with the lips closed down a bit. The w does that. Bra gets a completely open a, like when the doctor says to “open wide and say ahh.” ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/75 "2018-05-08T08:11:48Z")
They are the same vowel sounds that are in ‘collar’ and ‘caller’. If people pronounce them the same, you have to figure out yourself from the context whether they are talking about a “dog caller” or a “dog collar”. Whether “dog” has the same vowel sound as either of them is another matter entirely. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/76 "2018-05-08T14:16:19Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > They are the same vowel sounds that are in ‘collar’ and ‘caller’… … to _you_. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/77 "2018-05-08T15:13:30Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > They are the same vowel sounds that are in ‘collar’ and ‘caller’. If people pronounce them the same, you have to figure out yourself from the context whether they are talking about a “dog caller” or a “dog collar”. Whether “dog” has the same vowel sound as either of them is another matter entirely. I pronounce “caller” and “collar” differently, but I pronounce “paw” and “bra” both with the vowel in “caller.” Ain’t dialects fun? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/78 "2018-05-08T19:33:25Z")
And then there’s the time I moved to NYC, and learned to say “marry”, “Mary” and “merry” differently. Then 25 years later I move back here, and had to learn to say them all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/79 "2018-05-08T19:47:21Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And then there’s the time I moved to NYC, and learned to say “marry”, “Mary” and “merry” differently. Then 25 years later I move back here, and had to learn to say them all the same. I don’t even know HOW to say those differently. You change your lips or tongue around, or what? How can the addition of another “r” to “mary” result in pronouncing it differently? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/80 "2018-05-08T20:46:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t even know HOW to say those differently. You change your lips or tongue around, or what? How can the addition of another “r” to “mary” result in pronouncing it differently? I pronounce them the same, but just look at the vowels. Marry with an /ae/ sound like in “bat.” “Merry” with an /ɛ/ sound as in “bet.” “Mary” can be a “long a” sound as in “bait” or something close to it (like an é sound in French), so /eɪ/ or /e/. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=5)