# Pronunciation of the vowel sounds in "paw" and "bra". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431 "2018-05-01T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/81 "2018-05-08T20:55:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How can the addition of another “r” to “mary” result in pronouncing it differently? It’s basically like the phonics “rule” that words ending with a single consonant in between a vowel and a terminal “e” makes the vowel “long.” Like “mate” vs “matte.” Same sort of idea, except involving a terminal “y” instead of an “e.” Also, see “lady” vs "laddy, “Rudy” vs “ruddy,” “wily” vs “willy,” “tiny” vs “tinny,” “puny” vs “punny,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/82 "2018-05-08T21:21:12Z")
I’m not sure how I would pronounce them if I weren’t thinking about it in a sentence, but reading them in isolation they are not the same vowel. Pa and paw are not the same. SE Ohio. And I say “law-yer.” My husband thinks it sounds like “liar.” The jokes write themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/83 "2018-05-08T23:35:08Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And then there’s the time I moved to NYC, and learned to say “marry”, “Mary” and “merry” differently. Then 25 years later I move back here, and had to learn to say them all the same. Even when I try, I have trobble making or hearing the difference between Mary and merry, even though I conceptually know what they should be. Marry, on the other hand, is easy, because it’s that stereotypically British sound, as in Harry Potter. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/84 "2018-05-09T05:43:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t even know HOW to say those differently. You change your lips or tongue around, or what? How can the addition of another “r” to “mary” result in pronouncing it differently? Mary is spelled “wrongly”, it really should be spelled Mairy or Marey. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/85 "2018-05-09T13:13:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Even when I try, I have trobble making or hearing the difference between Mary and merry, even though I conceptually know what they should be. > > Marry, on the other hand, is easy, because it’s that stereotypically British sound, as in Harry Potter. I think Harry and hairy are the same too! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/86 "2018-05-09T13:15:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s basically like the phonics “rule” that words ending with a single consonant in between a vowel and a terminal “e” makes the vowel “long.” Like “mate” vs “matte.” Same sort of idea, except involving a terminal “y” instead of an “e.” Also, see “lady” vs "laddy, “Rudy” vs “ruddy,” “wily” vs “willy,” “tiny” vs “tinny,” “puny” vs “punny,” etc. I can understand that. But wouldn’t that mean that Mary is pronounced like “mawry” and Marry is pronounced “Mairy”? Or vice versa? Is that how some people say one of them? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/87 "2018-05-09T21:56:27Z")
Throwing out another one: do these words exactly rhyme for all y’all? Daughter Water Otter ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/88 "2018-05-09T22:04:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Throwing out another one: do these words exactly rhyme for all y’all? > > Daughter > Water > Otter For me, the last two rhyme, the first is different. “Aw” vs “ah.” /ɔ/ vs /ɑ/. Now, I understand that for a lot of people who are also not part of the caught/cot merger that it’s the first two that rhyme. For me, it’s the latter two. It’s also possible that the “ah” I have in “water” is not quite as “strong” as an “ah,” but it’s definitely not the “aw” in “daughter.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/89 "2018-05-09T22:12:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I can understand that. But wouldn’t that mean that Mary is pronounced like “mawry” and Marry is pronounced “Mairy”? Or vice versa? Is that how some people say one of them? I don’t see how you get that. The examples I showed above would suggest that “Mary” is pronounced with what we called a “long a” in grammar school and “marry” would be pronounced with what we called a “short a.” This is also why the whole “long a” and “short a” thing is irritating as it doesn’t cover other types of “a” sounds like “aw” and “ah.” So, here’s the idea: tiny - pronounced with a “long i” /aɪ/ tinny - extra “n” makes it pronounced with a “short i” /ɪ/ lady - pronounced with a “long a” /eɪ/ laddy - pronounced with a “short a” /æ/ ergo: Mary - pronounced with a “long a” /eɪ/ or /e/ marry - pronounced with a “short a” /æ/ ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/90 "2018-05-09T22:39:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Throwing out another one: do these words exactly rhyme for all y’all? > > Daughter > Water > Otter Down here in New Orleans: Daughter – /ɔ/ in the first syllable, rhymes with ‘water’ Water – /ɔ/ in the first syllable, rhymes with ‘daughter’ Otter – – /a/ in the first syllable, rhymes with ‘blotter’, ‘potter’, and ‘Mr. Kotter!’ ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/91 "2018-05-09T22:48:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Throwing out another one: do these words exactly rhyme for all y’all? > > Daughter > Water > Otter daw-ter (daɔtɚ) wah-ter (wɑtɚ) oh-ter (ɑtɚ) vowel in the last two are identical; daughter has the “aw” sound that the others do not. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/92 "2018-05-09T22:55:26Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For me, the last two rhyme, the first is different. “Aw” vs “ah.” /ɔ/ vs /ɑ/. Now, I understand that for a lot of people who are also not part of the caught/cot merger that it’s the first two that rhyme. For me, it’s the latter two. It’s also possible that the “ah” I have in “water” is not quite as “strong” as an “ah,” but it’s definitely not the “aw” in “daughter.” Actually, now that I’ve said it a number of time, I think my “water” has a vowel between the one in “daughter” and “otter.” I think my “otter” might be closer to /a/ or /ä/, while “water” is probably closer to /ɑ/ and “daughter” is /ɔ/. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/93 "2018-05-10T13:22:27Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I don’t see how you get that. The examples I showed above would suggest that “Mary” is pronounced with what we called a “long a” in grammar school and “marry” would be pronounced with what we called a “short a.” > > This is also why the whole “long a” and “short a” thing is irritating as it doesn’t cover other types of “a” sounds like “aw” and “ah.” > > So, here’s the idea: > > tiny - pronounced with a “long i” /aɪ/ > tinny - extra “n” makes it pronounced with a “short i” /ɪ/ > > lady - pronounced with a “long a” /eɪ/ > laddy - pronounced with a “short a” /æ/ > > ergo: > > Mary - pronounced with a “long a” /eɪ/ or /e/ > marry - pronounced with a “short a” /æ/ So some people pronounce “Mary” like “Mayree”? Like “lady” is pronounced like “laydee”? I don’t know what those symbols mean. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/94 "2018-05-10T13:48:49Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So some people pronounce “Mary” like “Mayree”? Like “lady” is pronounced like “laydee”? I don’t know what those symbols mean. Yes, which is exactly why I gave a phonetic transcription in my original post and used the imperfect terms “long a” and “short a” that many of us Americans were taught in grammar school. You know: “a long vowel says its name” and all that. I refer you to my original post: > [@](#): > > “Mary” can be a “long a” sound as in “bait” or something close to it (like an é sound in French), so /eɪ/ or /e/. So it can sound like “Mayree” or something similar to that, except with the “y” part clipped off, like the Spanish pronunciation for the final vowel in “José.” It’s not quite an “ay” sound, but registers as such in English to many speakers. To my ears, I don’t hear it as strong as “Mayree,” but if you clip off the tail of the “long a” sound, you’re there. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/95 "2018-05-10T13:58:18Z")
“Mary” can also be pronounced with like the “short e” in “bet” /ɛ/, but with a bit of a schwa after it, so it’s a diphthong /ɛə/. You can hear [an example here](https://youtu.be/2Ss2R57vOWU?t=55). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/96 "2018-05-10T14:04:27Z")
Also, if you don’t make the distinction, it’s a bit difficult to hear it, as you’re used to merging all three sounds into one. (And now that I listen to various examples more, saying it’s the “ay” as in “lady” is overstating the sound. It’s not a long diphthong like that. Try to say “lady” without gliding into the end of the vowel sound, and you’ve got an idea of one of the pronunciations.) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/97 "2018-05-10T14:07:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So some people pronounce “Mary” like “Mayree”? Yes, pretty much. Except to my ears, “Mayree” would sound exaggerated – that’s what Jackee Harry’s character Sandra used to call Mary (Marla Gibbs) on the old 80s sitcom _227_. To me, when people do distinguish “Mary” from “merry”, their “Mary” starts off just like my “mare” – in my dialect, “May” and “mate” have the same diphthong, but “mare” has a different one (a [centering diphthong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong#Closing,_opening,_and_centering)) due to the influence of the /r/. I actually believe this pronunciation of “mare” (that is, with a different diphthong from “mate”) is common in American English, if nowhere near invariable. So … maybe it’s helpful to say that “Mary” for many American speakers can sound like “mare-ee”? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/98 "2018-05-10T14:13:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > “Mary” can also be pronounced with like the “short e” in “bet” /ɛ/, but with a bit of a schwa after it, so it’s a diphthong /ɛə/. You can hear [an example here](https://youtu.be/2Ss2R57vOWU?t=55). The centering diphthong I just posted about is very close to this – just with the first element pronounced slightly higher: **/eə/**. We get a lot of mileage out of /eə/ down here – “mare”, “man”, and “ma’am” (but NOT “Mary”) all have that diphthong for local speakers. “Map”, “mat”, “Mack”, and “mass” all use another vowel altogether – **/æ/** (so-called ‘short a’), which I think is close to 100% usage in the U.S. for words like “hat” and “lap”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/99 "2018-05-10T14:16:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yes, which is exactly why I gave a phonetic transcription in my original post and used the imperfect terms “long a” and “short a” that many of us Americans were taught in grammar school. You know: “a long vowel says its name” and all that. I refer you to my original post: > > So it can sound like “Mayree” or something similar to that, except with the “y” part clipped off, like the Spanish pronunciation for the final vowel in “José.” It’s not quite an “ay” sound, but registers as such in English to many speakers. To my ears, I don’t hear it as strong as “Mayree,” but if you clip off the tail of the “long a” sound, you’re there. I don’t know what the phonetic symbols mean. It’s easier for me to understand what you are saying by just spelling out exactly what you are saying, like “mayree”. I have never heard anyone pronounce Mary like “mayree” so that is probably where my confusion comes from. Everyone I’ve ever talked to pronounced Mary and Merry the exact same way. To my ears anyway. Maybe they are saying it different to them, but it sounds the same to me. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/100 "2018-05-10T14:18:15Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Yes, pretty much. Except to my ears, “Mayree” would sound exaggerated – that’s what Jackee Harry’s character Sandra used to call Mary (Marla Gibbs) on the old 80s sitcom _227_. > > To me, when people do distinguish “Mary” from “merry”, their “Mary” starts off just like my “mare” – in my dialect, “May” and “mate” have the same diphthong, but “mare” has a different one (a [centering diphthong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong#Closing,_opening,_and_centering)) due to the influence of the /r/. I actually believe this pronunciation of “mare” (that is, with a different diphthong from “mate”) is common in American English, if nowhere near invariable. > > So … maybe it’s helpful to say that “Mary” for many American speakers can sound like “mare-ee”? Thanks! I also think “mare” and “mayor” are the same, so take that! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=6)