# Pronunciation of the vowel sounds in "paw" and "bra". **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 1, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431 "2018-05-01T20:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/101 "2018-05-10T14:29:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t know what the phonetic symbols mean. It’s easier for me to understand what you are saying by just spelling out exactly what you are saying, like “mayree”. I totally understand. Like I said above, that’s why I try to give examples in both “layman’s” terms and IPA. If I had only given the symbols, I’d understand your gripe, but I thought I did my best to actually keep people who don’t understand the symbols included in the group with those who do understand the symbols, using terms like “long a” and “short a” and including examples of words where adding an extra intervening consonant changes the quality of the vowel. I try to do that with pronunciation discussions to keep them inclusive unless I know everybody I’m talking with is versed in IPA. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/102 "2018-05-10T14:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Everyone I’ve ever talked to pronounced Mary and Merry the exact same way. To my ears anyway. And that’s exactly it. If your dialect does not make the distinction, it’s likely you don’t hear/register the difference, whereas to someone whose dialect does make the distinction, it’s obvious to them. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/103 "2018-05-10T14:39:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks! I also think “mare” and “mayor” are the same, so take that! That’s common at conversational fluency. If a little kid pointed to the word “mayor” in a book and asked me how to say it, though, I’d enunciate it consciously with two syllables. Just a matter of lingering on that “y” (or /j/ for the IPA set) long enough to allow the second syllable to gain salience. In phonetic analysis, such lingering is measured in milliseconds – perceptual differences can pivot on surprisingly subtle details of articulation. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/104 "2018-05-10T15:04:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I totally understand. Like I said above, that’s why I try to give examples in both “layman’s” terms and IPA. If I had only given the symbols, I’d understand your gripe, but I thought I did my best to actually keep people who don’t understand the symbols included in the group with those who do understand the symbols, using terms like “long a” and “short a” and including examples of words where adding an extra intervening consonant changes the quality of the vowel. I try to do that with pronunciation discussions to keep them inclusive unless I know everybody I’m talking with is versed in IPA. That’s cool. I knew what you meant, I was just requesting clarification that people said “Mary” with a long-a sound. I know the ‘long a’ and ‘short a’ sounds 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/105 "2018-05-10T15:12:10Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s cool. I knew what you meant, I was just requesting clarification that people said “Mary” with a long-a sound. I know the ‘long a’ and ‘short a’ sounds 🙂 Yeah, the “long-a” was exaggerating the sound a bit, bit puts you in the right frame of mind for at least understanding how the sounds could differ.It sounded to me like you couldn’t even conceptualize how it’s possible those three words could be pronounced differently, even though two of them have different vowels (“a” vs “e”) and one of them had the “a” in a position where it’s customary to vary its pronunciation based on whether it’s followed by a single consonant and an “e” or “y” or by multiple consonants and an “e” or “y.” **bordelond** ’s explanation works quite well and is probably most accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/106 "2018-05-10T17:29:25Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It sounded to me like you couldn’t even conceptualize how it’s possible those three words could be pronounced differently, Yeah that was pretty much it 🙂 Like somebody saying “Halloween” with a ‘long a’ sound. It just sounds so wrong to me 🙂 Turns out not everybody pronounces words the way I do. Who knew? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/107 "2018-05-16T21:29:49Z")
Like manson1972, I’m a native speaker of the marry/Mary/merry merger, which is true of most of the United States. When I was in grade school, they showed us an educational film with a cartoon of two police detectives interrogating a suspect who wouldn’t answer the question of where he was from. So they had him pronounce words and used phonetic isoglosses on the map to narrow him down to his specific hometown. The first pronunciation they tried was “marry, Mary, merry,” the guy pronounced them all differently, and they said “Aha! East of the Alleghenies,” and drew a line on a map. In the film the voice actor enunciated the words very slowly and clearly, to help even those of us who thought they were all the same to hear them distinctly. It’s probably the best-known and most definitive pronunciation isogloss in American English. That film helped me along as a budding young linguist, and ever since then the phrase “east of the Alleghenies” has stayed with me. Later, when I researched the history of my pioneer ancestors who moved west of the Alleghenies in 1788, I realized the significance of that big escarpment as a barrier to movement was when there were no roads over it in Pennsylvania (the only road over it went through Cumberland, Maryland), while my ancestors had to climb up it at what would become Altoona. Then it became plain to see how a different dialect was bound to develop there in the early days, when it was a big pain in the ass to cross the Alleghenies at all, let alone hauling cargo. Which was the major reason contributing to the Whiskey Rebellion. Western Pennsylvania’s commerce was more closely connected (via rivers) with New Orleans than with Philadelphia. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/108 "2018-05-16T23:19:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah that was pretty much it 🙂 Like somebody saying “Halloween” with a ‘long a’ sound. It just sounds so wrong to me 🙂 > > Turns out not everybody pronounces words the way I do. Who knew? > > 😉 I am from New York and pronounce Mary/Merry/Marry all differently and the New York accent most definitely does \*\*not \*\*say Mary with a long a! That is something I would associate with a stereotypical Southern US accent. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/109 "2018-05-16T23:21:15Z")
I’m from Southwest Ohio but my accent is very mixed. I pronounce them differently. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/110 "2018-05-16T23:23:28Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I am from New York and pronounce Mary/Merry/Marry all differently and the New York accent most definitely does \*\*not \*\*say Mary with a long a! That is something I would associate with a stereotypical Southern US accent. When you’re really trying to nail down pronunciation in the real world, terms like “long A” are practically meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/111 "2018-05-16T23:58:55Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > Bra, paw, law, ha, maw, nah, gah, ta-ta, flaw, awe, jaw, saw… all the same. > > cot, caught, taught, brought, hot, lot, aught, ought, bot, rot… all the same. I’m in western Canada and bra and paw would have the same vowel sounds to me. And I agree with your analysis of the above words too. ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/112 "2018-05-17T02:14:09Z")
Ska and saw? Same distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/113 "2018-05-17T12:30:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > When you’re really trying to nail down pronunciation in the real world, terms like “long A” are practically meaningless. I think of it as the Fonz when he looks in the mirror and says “Ayyyyy!” Or just saying the letter “A” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/114 "2018-05-17T12:32:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I think of it as the Fonz when he looks in the mirror and says “Ayyyyy!” Or just saying the letter “A” 🙂 People with different accents prounounce that differently. That’s the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/115 "2018-05-17T14:29:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > People with different accents prounounce that differently. That’s the whole point. I have always understood “long a” to mean the difference between “mate” and “mat.” Whatever your accent is, _you still say those **a** ’s differently_. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/116 "2018-05-17T14:35:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > People with different accents prounounce that differently. That’s the whole point. People pronounce the letter of the alphabet “A” differently? This is running into more of I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding you or you are misunderstanding me, or what. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/117 "2018-05-17T15:07:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > People pronounce the letter of the alphabet “A” differently? This is running into more of I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding you or you are misunderstanding me, or what. Depends on how you want to classify “different,” but, yes, the vowel sound will vary a bit among accents, but will still probably be perceived as a “long a” to you. For example, many Australians will say their “ays” much much lower in their mouth than Americans, for instance, so that the beginning of the “ay” sound is more like an /ae/ (as in “cat”) rather than an /e/. So, when I say, the “a” in “Mary” is like an American “ay” sound with the ending of it chopped off, it doesn’t work with manyAustralian “ay” sounds, as that is likely to start with a sound closer to the “a” in “cat.” But that’s probably a finer level of detail than is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/118 "2018-05-17T15:32:51Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I have always understood “long a” to mean the difference between “mate” and “mat.” Whatever your accent is, _you still say those **a** ’s differently_. That definition is not going to help you puzzle out complex differences bettered vowel groupings like Mary/marry/merry. You’ll have one person saying “it’s a long A!” And another saying “it’s not!” And neither person really knows what sound the other one is thinking of. > [@Slash1972](#): > > People pronounce the letter of the alphabet “A” differently? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/119 "2018-05-17T21:41:22Z")
The miseducation of the American student. The teaching of phonetics is long overdue for a thorough overhaul. The perpetuation of a system 150 years out of date has left people ill-prepared to follow discussions of real phonetics. To introduce basic IPA into elementary school curricula would be a helpful first step. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431/120 "2018-05-18T12:35:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Depends on how you want to classify “different,” but, yes, the vowel sound will vary a bit among accents, but will still probably be perceived as a “long a” to you. For example, many Australians will say their “ays” much much lower in their mouth than Americans, for instance, so that the beginning of the “ay” sound is more like an /ae/ (as in “cat”) rather than an /e/. So, when I say, the “a” in “Mary” is like an American “ay” sound with the ending of it chopped off, it doesn’t work with manyAustralian “ay” sounds, as that is likely to start with a sound closer to the “a” in “cat.” > > But that’s probably a finer level of detail than is necessary. Well, I thought we were talking about people in America. I can see how different countries would pronounce things different. But thanks for all the good info. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-the-vowel-sounds-in-paw-and-bra/813431.md?page=7)