# Pronunciation of "ye" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 29, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883 "2014-09-29T17:41:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/1 "2014-09-29T17:41:45Z")
As students of archaic English will know, the letters “ye” can represent both the word _ye_ as the plural of _thee_, and the word _the_ using a variant glyph of the letter “þ” (thorn). The former is pronounced “yee”, while the later is pronounced like the word _the_. At my church we sing the doxology: Praise God from whom all blessings flow Praise him all creatures here below Praise him above ye heavenly host Praise Father Son and Holy Ghost (Punctuation deliberately elided, because how it’s punctuated might depend on the following question.) So, what is the word “ye” in the above poem? How is it pronounced? My inclination is the “ye” is the plural of _thee_. Some quick Google searches seem to confirm that, but that doesn’t mean it’s correct. I know we have some philologists, linguists, and generally well-educated people around here. Does anyone know the answer? (I’d ask people at my church, but I’m one of the few who speak English as a primary language and don’t trust their answers to esoteric questions about English.) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/2 "2014-09-29T17:50:37Z")
In my readings of how to pronounce many of JRRT’s Old English words, I’m instructed there to pronounce it as it would sound in the word ‘thee’. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/3 "2014-09-29T18:11:28Z")
The correct pronunciation is “thee.” There never was a word pronounced the other way, only old-form spelling with a _thorn_ instead of a Y. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/4 "2014-09-29T18:25:25Z")
Hmm, so was there no difference in pronunciation between _ye_ (archaic second person plural, nominative) and _thee_ (archaic second person singular, accusative)? If **y** is equivalent to **th** , how come we once apparently had _ye_ and _thee_ existing in the language, with different though related meanings, simultaneously? In the 17th century, would _thou_ and _you_ have been pronounced the same? Methinks the notion that the authentic, period pronunciation of the initial **y** in such words would always have been like a modern **th** may be a considerable oversimplification. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/5 "2014-09-29T18:31:20Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The correct pronunciation is “thee.” There never was a word pronounced the other way, only old-form spelling with a _thorn_ instead of a Y. Yes. Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/6 "2014-09-29T18:34:31Z")
Wiki says: Ye as in ‘you’ was pronounced ‘ye’ (possibly slightly harder, like ‘jee’) Ye as in ‘Ye Olde Sweet Shoppe’ was pronounced ‘The’ > **[Ye (pronoun)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_%28pronoun%29)** > > Ye (/jiː/) is a second-person, plural, personal pronoun (nominative), spelled in Old English as "ge". In Middle English and Early Modern English, it was used as a both informal second-person plural and formal honorific, to address a group of equals or superiors or a single superior. While its use is archaic in most of the English-speaking world, it is used in Newfoundland and Labrador in Canada, and some parts of Ireland to distinguish from the singular "you". > "Ye" is also sometimes used to repr... ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/7 "2014-09-29T18:36:22Z")
It’s not possible to know for sure, but by the time Thomas Ken wrote this in 1674, they were probably pronouncing ‘ye’ much the same as we generally pronounce it today, although ‘the’ would fit perfectly well. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/8 "2014-09-29T18:47:16Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Methinks the notion that the authentic, period pronunciation of the initial **y** in such words would always have been like a modern **th** may be a considerable oversimplification. Not really. There’s no good reason why þ was left out of the modern alphabet, but there’s no question that it stood for the ‘th’ sound and that Þe == the/thee. The Y is just a substitution of letter form, not sound. I don’t know what evidence there is for a “yee” pronunciation before the advent of radio and the mass use of the word in fictional/pseudoformal settings. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/9 "2014-09-29T18:48:44Z")
_ye_, the plural of _thou_, has always been pronounced “yee”. In Old English, it was _ge_, most definitely pronounced with a “y” sound rather than a “th”. Suggesting that the plural of _thou_/_thee_ is pronounced with a “th” sound is a hypercorrection of the error of mispronouncing the “ye” glyph of _the_ with a “y” sound. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/10 "2014-09-29T18:51:34Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > It’s not possible to know for sure, but by the time Thomas Ken wrote this in 1674, they were probably pronouncing ‘ye’ much the same as we generally pronounce it today, although ‘the’ would fit perfectly well. Yeah. Figuring out which word is there is the first step to getting the pronunciation correct. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/11 "2014-09-29T18:51:43Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > _ye_, the plural of _thou_, has always been pronounced “yee”. In Old English, it was _ge_, most definitely pronounced with a “y” sound rather than a “th”. Suggesting that the plural of _thou_/_thee_ is pronounced with a “th” sound is a hypercorrection of the error of mispronouncing the “ye” glyph of _the_ with a “y” sound. If [you | thou | ye | ya] say so. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/12 "2014-09-29T18:57:54Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > It’s not possible to know for sure, but by the time Thomas Ken wrote this in 1674, they were probably pronouncing ‘ye’ much the same as we generally pronounce it today, although ‘the’ would fit perfectly well. But it is not hard at all to make an educated guess when you know how Germanic pronouns work across different languages and times. Pronouncing both the same doesn’t make sense. The way I read the line in the OP, the pronoun “ye” doesn’t fit because it is the nominative form (unless you read it as “Praise him above, ye heavenly host!” which seems weird.) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/13 "2014-09-30T02:21:27Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > The way I read the line in the OP, the pronoun “ye” doesn’t fit because it is the nominative form (unless you read it as “Praise him above, ye heavenly host!” which seems weird.) On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Line one is a general injuction to praise God. Line two addresses earthly creatures, urging them to praise God. Line three addresses heavenly creatures, enjoining them to praise God, so the two lines complement one another. “Ye heavenly host” would be “you heavenly host” in modern English. And the standard punctation of the line confirms this reading. The other clue is that this quatrain is an extract from a longer hymn ( “Awake, my soul, and with the sun”) in which the definite article is consistently rendered as “the”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/14 "2014-09-30T14:44:59Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Line one is a general injuction to praise God. Line two addresses earthly creatures, urging them to praise God. Line three addresses heavenly creatures, enjoining them to praise God, so the two lines complement one another. “Ye heavenly host” would be “you heavenly host” in modern English. And the standard punctation of the line confirms this reading. Yes, this has always been my interpretation. It makes the most sense to me. But I wasn’t sure it’s actually correct. > [@UDS](#): > > The other clue is that this quatrain is an extract from a longer hymn ( “Awake, my soul, and with the sun”) in which the definite article is consistently rendered as “the”. In the context of the full hymn, I think the “ye” as “you” is probably correct, and thus pronounced “yee”. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/15 "2014-09-30T15:46:07Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > (unless you read it as “Praise him above, ye heavenly host!” which seems weird.) Agreeing with UDS that this is not a weird reading, and in fact the only one that makes sense in this context. There are two possible readings of ‘Praise Him above the Heavenly Host’: 1. Praise H[e who is] above the Heavenly Host - this is odd phrasing, but not unknown poetically…but it’s strange in context, since He is above everything and everyone. 2. Praise Him [more than you praise] the Heavenly Host - this is a strange reading as it implies that people would need to be told to praise God more than the Angels. Both also have an issue in that above ceases to correspond to ‘below’ from the previous line, as UDS noted. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-of-ye/699883/16 "2014-09-30T16:59:20Z")
Concur. It means ‘praise him up there, all you heavenly creatures’