# Pronunciation question from "The Borgias" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 25, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706 "2011-04-25T20:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/1 "2011-04-25T20:47:42Z")
I’ve been enjoying the current series of _The Borgias_, but there is one thing that I find extremely grating, namely, the pronunciation of the name of Cesare Borgia. I assume that the Italian pronunciation would be [tʃe’zare] (che-ZA-rey) (with no diphthong at the end). I’m assuming that the ordinary Anglicization of this name is “Caesar” ['sizɚ] (SEE-zer) in General American and ['sizə] (SEE-zuh) in R.P. However, on the show they are pronouncing it as ['tʃɛzəreɪ] (CHEZZ-uh-ray). This pronunciation is driving me crazy. Is it a common way to Anglicize the Italian name “Cesare”? Is it something that has been going on for years and I’ve just never caught on to? If it’s going to be Anglicized, why not just go all the way? Why go with this fish-half-out-of-the-water pronunciation? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/2 "2011-04-25T21:38:13Z")
The Italian pronunciation would be CHEZZ-uh-ray, just as they’re saying it in the program. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/3 "2011-04-25T21:57:58Z")
I’m not buying it. For example, none of the pronunciation samples here – [Giulio Cesare pronunciation: How to pronounce Giulio Cesare in Italian](http://www.forvo.com/word/giulio_cesare/) – sound like the pronunciation on the show. The vowels are all different. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/4 "2011-04-25T22:36:44Z")
Sorry, misread your post, you’re quite right, the Italian pronunciation is the first one you gave. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/5 "2011-04-25T23:06:20Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > This pronunciation is driving me crazy. Is it a common way to Anglicize the Italian name “Cesare”? Is it something that has been going on for years and I’ve just never caught on to? If it’s going to be Anglicized, why not just go all the way? Why go with this fish-half-out-of-the-water pronunciation? I don’t think it’s an anglicization, but I’m also not sure it’s wrong. Remember, it takes place in Rome in the late 1400’s. Pronuciations change in every language over the course of a few hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![A.Gwilliam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@A.Gwilliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Gwilliam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/6 "2011-04-26T00:42:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I assume that the Italian pronunciation would be [tʃe’zare] (che-ZA-rey) (with no diphthong at the end). > > … > > However, on the show they are pronouncing it as ['tʃɛzəreɪ] (CHEZZ-uh-ray). As I understand it (not being an Italian speaker), you have the correct vowel sounds in your version, but the show’s version has the correct stress. Thus ['tʃezare] is the correct form (maybe with [ɛ] in the first syllable). It’s not entirely unreasonable in my view for this to be pronounced by an English speaker as ['tʃɛzəreɪ]. The schwa is a bit sloppy, mind. ETA: The two Italian residents in the Forvo link seem to be using [ɛ], with the stress pattern as I indicated. ---
**Author:** ![Themenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Themenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themenin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/7 "2011-04-26T08:54:05Z")
Sounds like the show has it about right. As noted by **A. Gwilliam** - the show correctly stresses the first syllable, and correctly renders the ‘s’ as ‘zzz’. As for the vowels, well Italian vowels aren’t the same as English vowels, without even getting into regional variations, changes over time etc. so I’d give them a pass on that. An English speaker would tend to “under-accentuate” the ‘a’, and transform the ‘re’ (about as in ‘wreck’) into ‘ray’. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/8 "2011-04-26T09:23:47Z")
cheZArey? CHEZZuhray? (why two Zs?) WTF? Why the ridiculous affectation of foreign accent or pronunciation here or in any other production where the dialog is in English? How about the standard English SEEzer, and if you want to learn Italian pronunciation then sign up for Italian 101? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/9 "2011-04-26T11:51:28Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > cheZArey? > > CHEZZuhray? (why two Zs?) > > WTF? > > Why the ridiculous affectation of foreign accent or pronunciation here > or in any other production where the dialog is in English? > > How about the standard English SEEzer, and if you want to learn Italian > pronunciation then sign up for Italian 101? Give it up, I cant even get anybody to pronounce homage without the cheesy french accent. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/10 "2011-04-26T12:39:50Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Give it up, I cant even get anybody to pronounce homage without the cheesy french accent. You mean they pronounce it ohmazh as in rhyming with the French word for cheese? Aiyaiyai. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/11 "2011-04-26T13:14:53Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > cheZArey? > > CHEZZuhray? (why two Zs?) > > WTF? > > Why the ridiculous affectation of foreign accent or pronunciation here > or in any other production where the dialog is in English? > > How about the standard English SEEzer, and if you want to learn Italian > pronunciation then sign up for Italian 101? If you have an English name like, say, Thomas, wouldn’t you expect foreigners to do you the courtesy of pronouncing it at least roughly like you do, rather than, say, “Toe-MAHH”? Names should be pronounced as they are by their owners, as far as possible and unless they agree to go by an Anglicised version thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/12 "2011-04-26T13:43:58Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > cheZArey? > > CHEZZuhray? (why two Zs?) I provided the IPA transcription to make it unambiguous. > [@Colophon](#): > > If you have an English name like, say, Thomas, wouldn’t you expect foreigners to do you the courtesy of pronouncing it at least roughly like you do, rather than, say, “Toe-MAHH”? Names should be pronounced as they are by their owners, as far as possible and unless they agree to go by an Anglicised version thereof. First of all, this is a completely different situation than dealing with a living person face-to-face. This is a dramatic presentation in which largely British actors speaking in English are performing a fictionalized version of a historical story. There’s absolutely no reason to try to resurrect the original speech and pronunciations of the characters. The damn show’s in English. Don’t switch to a really bad Italian accent for the sake of one single name. Not only is it historically wrong, it’s dramatically stupid. Drives me nuts. Just call him Caesar. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/13 "2011-04-26T14:22:29Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > However, on the show they are pronouncing it as ['tʃɛzəreɪ] (CHEZZ-uh-ray). According to [this spoken-word link](http://www.forvo.com/word/cesare_borgia/), ['tʃɛzəreɪ] – with the first syllable stressed – is very close. The Italian speaker at that link pronounces it more like ['tʃɛ za re], which is a difference that will be lost on 99.9999% of an English-speaking audience. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/14 "2011-04-26T14:25:26Z")
I’m hearing that as ['tʃe za re], not ['tʃɛ za re]. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/15 "2011-04-26T14:29:18Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’m hearing that as ['tʃe za re], not ['tʃɛ za re]. … again, a distinction lost on a vast majority of the audience. You know too much about language, and it’s getting in the way of your enjoyment of this program 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/16 "2011-04-26T14:34:05Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > … again, a distinction lost on a vast majority of the audience. And I think the audience would have been just as happy with “Caesar Borgia.” The HBO series _Rome_ stuck with standard Anglicized names. We didn’t have to hear bad attempts at authentic pronunciations – Yoolioos Kyzar and such. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/17 "2011-04-26T18:09:50Z")
I recall the BBC’s 1981 version of _The Borgias_ and there was this same variation. Adolfo Celi’s performance and accent (apparently he learned his English lines phonetically) came in for particular criticism. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/18 "2011-04-26T19:23:22Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > You mean they pronounce it ohmazh as in rhyming with the French word for cheese? > > Aiyaiyai. yup. it was doing just fine anglicized, then the artistic emoweenies had to change the pronunciation back to show how artistic they were. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/19 "2011-04-27T02:00:40Z")
You think I would apply different rules to productions in other languages? Well, I would not. > [@Colophon](#): > > If you have an English name like, say, Thomas, wouldn’t you expect foreigners to do you the courtesy of pronouncing it at least roughly like you do, Nonsense. The only party due such courtesy is the audience whose language the work is composed in. They are the ones buying the tickets, aren’t they? There may be a few random versions where an Anglo audience might be as familiar with the foreign as the English, such as Pierre and Pedro (but _not_ Pyotor). In such cases the foreign may be used since it will not mystify the paying customers. > [@Colophon](#): > > rather than, say, “Toe-MAHH”? I doubt the ghost of Thomas Jefferson (did he expect the locals to call him TOMas while he was over there?) would be upset if his name were pronounced as in French in a French movie. I am sure I would not be. And since we are dealing with French now, you do not seriously propose that English-language productions need to change over from Joan of Arc to Zhon DAR, do you? How about Charles to SHARL as in Gen. DeGaulle? > [@Colophon](#): > > Names should be pronounced as they are by their owners, as far as possible and unless they agree to go by an Anglicised version thereof. Names in Movie/TV production should be pronounced as by their listeners, who if English speakers would have no fricken idea what the Anglisized version cheZArey and CHEZZuhray might be. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706/20 "2011-04-27T02:03:45Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > yup. it was doing just fine anglicized, then the artistic emoweenies had to change the pronunciation back to show how artistic they were. “Artistic emoweenies”- now that’s a good put-down. Hope you don’t mind if I add it to my own arsenal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciation-question-from-the-borgias/579706.md?page=2)