# Pronunciations even experts disagree on **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 8, 2023, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898 "2023-01-08T23:50:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/161 "2023-01-13T17:04:30Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Who in their right mind would claim otherwise? You, explicitly, in your very next sentence. > [@alovem](#): > > I use the word lisp as a description of the consonant sound, without implying that there’s any kind of speech impediment. That’ not _implying_ it’s a speech impediment, it’s outright asserting it. It’s the wrong description, and it’s offensive. > [@alovem](#): > > There’s probably a more technical word to describe it, but it’s common IME to refer to that as lisping. A lot of offensive language is common. We have a current active thread discussing many examples. [The shifting tides of racist language](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841) ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/162 "2023-01-13T17:15:57Z")
Your _leap of ill will_ is a lot more offensive. I know you’re here because you like arguing with people a lot more than reaching an understanding. That’s not my thing. Adiós. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/163 "2023-01-13T17:22:07Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Your _leap of ill will_ is a lot more offensive. I said absolutely nothing about “ill will”. Your intent is irrelevant, and I spoke only to the objective semantic content of your terminology. If you refuse to reflect when three people tell you that the terminology you use is offensive, the only person that reflects on is you. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/164 "2023-01-13T17:31:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I said absolutely nothing about “ill will”. No, that was me who said that about you. > [@Riemann](#): > > Your intent is irrelevant,… Yeah, seems to characterize your interaction here. You should think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/165 "2023-01-13T20:03:42Z")
So if I described epicanthic folds as an “eye defect” that Chinese people have, that wouldn’t be offensive? At first I thought you just used some careless language, but now you’re doubling down. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/166 "2023-01-13T20:11:36Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > I use the word lisp as a description of the consonant sound, without implying that there’s any kind of speech impediment. Then you should stop doing that. A _lisp_ is a type of speech impediment. It is not a word used to describe the phonemics or phonetics of a language. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/167 "2023-01-14T05:52:11Z")
Moderating: > [@alovem](#): > > Your _leap of ill will_ is a lot more offensive. I know you’re here because you like arguing with people a lot more than reaching an understanding. > [@Riemann](#): > > If you refuse to reflect when three people tell you that the terminology you use is offensive, the only person that reflects on is you. Let’s dial it back. You’ve both made the discussion more personal than it merits. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/168 "2023-01-14T08:08:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It is not a word used to describe the phonemics or phonetics of a language. Yes, it is. The Merriam-Webster dictionary’s second entry for the noun form is “a sound resembling a lisp.” > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > So if I described epicanthic folds as an “eye defect” that Chinese people have, that wouldn’t be offensive? > > At first I thought you just used some careless language, but now you’re doubling down. For fuck’s sake, you guys are just looking for a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/169 "2023-01-14T13:00:50Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Yes, it is. The Merriam-Webster dictionary’s second entry for the noun form is “a sound resembling a lisp.” A dictionary will record all kinds of usages that, if you listen to people around you, will turn out to have implications that are not in the definition. This is why terms like _retard_ and (in some places) _spazz_ are now being avoided. Because a term that originally identified a disability was used to describe non-disabled people and this is considered distasteful. You might also take into account the role of descriptions of lisping in the context of homophobic culture. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/170 "2023-01-14T13:40:35Z")
If I read a text message aloud, is it “el-oh-el”, or “loll”? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/171 "2023-01-14T14:31:57Z")
How do you pronounce the Greek letter phi (\phi)? Is it “fie” or “fee”? I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it both ways. And unlike what this article says, but like what some of its commenters say, I _thought_ remembered my (U.S.) math professors pronouncing it “fee”—but that was long enough ago that I can’t remember for sure. > **[Pronouncing Phi - The Golden Ratio: Phi, 1.618](https://www.goldennumber.net/pronouncing-phi/)** > > Phee, Phi, Pho, Phum™ … or how do you say Φ? The generally accepted pronunciation of phi is fi, like fly. Most people know phi as “fi,” to rhyme with fly, as its pronounced in “Phi Beta Kappa.”  In Dan Brown’s best selling book “The Da... ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/172 "2023-01-14T14:43:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How do you pronounce the Greek letter phi (\phi ϕ\phi )? Is it “fie” or “fee”? I just say “That Greek letter that looks like an olive with a toothpick running through it” for simplicity’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/173 "2023-01-14T14:57:30Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s how I say it (Chicago/Great Lakes dialect.) At least I can’t hear a difference between how I say “Bengels” and “Bangles.” Friedrich Engels was a collaborator of Karl Marx. Do you hear a difference between “Engels” and “angles”? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/174 "2023-01-14T15:04:43Z")
Depends on who is saying it I suppose. I know what the difference is. Me? I say it the same, I think. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/175 "2023-01-14T17:44:00Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > A dictionary will record all kinds of usages that, if you listen to people around you, will turn out to have implications that are not in the definition. I’ve always heard educated and sensitive people around me refer to it as a lisp, and, before I posted the bit you’re responding to, I checked two dictionaries (online versions of Merriam-Webster and Cambridge), you know, just to fight ignorance and all that, and the entries there include non-disparaging use. Cambridge doesn’t even explicitly define it as a defect or impediment in any of its entries (implicitly, yes, but it’s described as a phenomenon, without connotations of right or wrong). > [@Acsenray](#): > > You might also take into account the role of descriptions of lisping in the context of homophobic culture. What does that have to do with Spanish pronunciation? 🙄 It seems to me that you and others hear/read the word “lisp,” you get nervous and jump to conclusions. If you’d prefer that I use another word to describe the pertinent Spanish pronunciation, you could try telling me the word and suggesting that I use it. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/176 "2023-01-14T17:57:31Z")
Hmmm. In “compact disk,” it’s an adjective. I’m trying to think ir there’s some ind of pattern for adjectives. In general words like RE-cord/re-CORD, PRO-duce/pro-DUCE, ES-cort/es-CORT are nouns when stressed on the first syllable, and verbs when stressed on the second. I would argue that in the case of “compact disk,” a noun has been apprpriated as an adjective, and so stress on the first syllable is correct. If you can find early uses where it was “compacted disk,” an the “ed” was fell away, then I would agree that “com-PACT” is correct ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/177 "2023-01-14T19:10:48Z")
Engels in the Outfield is a much different movie. ---
**Author:** ![Guapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@Guapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guapo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/178 "2023-01-15T17:41:24Z")
I’m from Boston and had the opposite experience. To me, Don and Dawn sound identical. My Minnesotan friends disagree. They pronounce the former something like “dahn”. How about “often”? You increasingly hear the “t” pronounced. I always thought that was a case if hypercorrection. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/179 "2023-01-15T19:18:34Z")
> [@Guapo](#): > > How about “often”? You increasingly hear the “t” pronounced. I always thought that was a case if hypercorrection. “Often” with the T pronounced is a back-formation from “oft.” Once upon a time, “oft” was an adjective, and “often” strictly an adverb. But “oft” faded as “often” came to serve for both. The funny thing is that even though “often” was always pronounced “offen,” some dictionary writers chose to spell it “often” to reflect the etymological relationship to “oft”-- a relationship I did not bother to verify for this post, because it doesn’t matter if it’s real, only that some influential people thought it was. “Debt” has a B for a similar reason-- to reflect its descent from “debitum” in Latin. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898/180 "2023-01-15T19:23:49Z")
BTW, I get kind of annoyed when people who have seen “dour” but not heard it pronounce it to rhyme with “sour.” I guess it’s a reasonable assumption, but that word already exists in English, it’s spelled “dower,” and yes, rhymes with “sour.” And means something completely different. It’s even usually a different part of speech. “Dour” has a diphthong, but it sounds almost like “door.” Sounds more like that than it sounds like “dower.” The vowel is sort of in between “doer” and “door.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronunciations-even-experts-disagree-on/977898.md?page=10)