# Proof of Angels **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2003, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968 "2003-11-24T07:42:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/41 "2003-11-25T15:05:04Z")
Well, maybe angels don’t understand the concept of “legs.” They fly around with long white gowns on, and some of them are only baby-heads with wings sticking out of their necks. They probably spent the first few days going, “_Fly_, lady—what’s the _matter_ with you?” while her legs were freezing off. ---
**Author:** ![Flash-57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/839c29/32.png) [@Flash-57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flash-57)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/42 "2003-11-25T18:10:25Z")
\> So, given “B”, any possible “A” that may explain “B” must be true. Change “must” to “might” and you are absolutely correct. \> I must be God. How else do you explain the fact that I am \> wearing a blue sweater? Well, many people do believe that God exists in everything and everyone. Your statements fit with those beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/43 "2003-11-25T18:24:03Z")
In other news, it turns out that [Jesus Christ is also Satan, but he now prefers to go by the name Douglas Fathke](http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/daily/2003/Nov-18-Tue-2003/news/news1.html). ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/44 "2003-11-25T18:35:48Z")
**Hydro** , I just gotta bitch about the thread title. As one of the worthies herebouts said, “proofs are for geometry.” At best, this story could be called “support” or “evidence” for angels, and even that’s stretching it- hypothermic hallucinations are poor evidence by any standard. Does [this story](http://personal.news.yahoo.com/us/news/ratings/getavgrate.html?locale=us&prop=news&rateid=afp/20031124/india_old_health_offbeat&type=T&cat=1517&ncid=1516) “prove” humans don’t need to eat or drink? I don’t know why WND ran the “frostbitten idiot has a vision” report and not this one… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/45 "2003-11-25T19:31:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*Not the point. You said that _this specific incident_ was evidence of evolution. It is not. Stop moving the goalposts. \*\* Heck, any _specific incident_ doesn’t prove a damn thing, but if we’re going to wildly speculate, I prefer the explanation that humans are rugged (such ruggedness a result of thousands of generations of natural selection) over the notion that creatures commonly known as angels are watching over a few randomly-selected individuals unlucky enough to mangle themselves in car accidents. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/46 "2003-11-25T19:35:05Z")
Whoops, the unlucky individual in this _specific incident_ was actually injured in a fall, not an auto accident. Well, no matter. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/47 "2003-11-25T20:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DaPearl \* > \*\*Completely agree with **FriarTed**. Its not proof of angels or God, but there is no harm done here for her believing and others who want to believe. \*\* No harm done? I attribute at least 99% of the world’s problems to belief systems that fly in the face of reality. Gee, I think I’ll start believing that if I kill a lot of infidels, I’ll go to Heaven, surrounded by olives and virgins. No harm done. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/48 "2003-11-25T20:47:22Z")
I don’t see how the angels could have kept her warm anyway…what, with them running around in trashy lingerie, parading around like a bunch of slu…Oh. Different angels, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/49 "2003-11-25T20:48:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Borgia \* > If angels only intervene in manners which can be explained as natural phenomena, then they probably don’t exist. you’re only saying that cuz the angels told you to. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/50 "2003-11-27T22:25:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I take it as proof of evoution, actually, in that natural selection over millions of years has made the human body rugged enough to survive extreme adversity. > > Besides, if the angels were real, why didn’t they, y’know, GO FOR HELP or something? Even Lassie could manage that. \*\* Yeah, I can see it all now. What girl? What is it? (angel remains silent.) What? You want me to follow you? (angel remains silent, but nods.) Okay, girl, I’m coming… * * * True Blue Jack ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/51 "2003-11-27T23:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by eli\_the\_fanatic \* > \*\*Why do you suppose CNN would CONCEAL information about angels, Snoop? Some kind of liberal media conspiracy? Whatever. There are no fucking angels. Get over it. \*\* Inasmuch as angels do not possess physical bodies and therefore presumably do not possess genitalia, then obviously there can be no fucking angels. However, non-fucking angels remain a possibility. Everybody chill out! I’m just being a smartass! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/52 "2003-11-28T05:38:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*I don’t see how the angels could have kept her warm anyway…what, with them running around in trashy lingerie, parading around like a bunch of slu…Oh. Different angels, right? \*\* You don’t see how angels running around in trashy lingerie can keep you warm? That’s the saddest thing I’ve ever read here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/53 "2003-11-28T06:03:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LonesomePolecat \* > **Inasmuch as angels do not possess physical bodies and therefore presumably do not possess genitalia, then obviously there can be no fucking angels. However, non-fucking angels remain a possibility.** Well then, being an angel doesn’t sound like much fun. And besides, where do all those little cherubim come from? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/54 "2003-11-28T06:13:21Z")
Dead smurfs? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/55 "2003-11-28T14:20:16Z")
I have a real concern for stories like this as suggesting God (or his angelic staff) is highly selective and only marginally competent. Supposing the story to be veritable (not merely an account of what she believes she saw, but accurate reportage of what did happen), why could not the angels have cranked up the heat enough to keep her from requiring amputation? As others have noted, why could they not alert a believer (even in the à la Lassie scenario) to where she was? But the other side of the picture is that the same degree of interpreting the story to fit one’s worldview is being taken by both sides of the “what really happened” debate. There is abundant historical and legendary evidence of angelic apparitions. Granted that no angel has decided to put in an appearance in a well-equipped physics lab to be studied, there are at least sufficient sightings to elevate the concept beyond monster-under-the-bed to a level with, say, the Nandi bear. In short, what I’m saying is that the only valid verdict one can render here is a “not proven” – \*assuming \* the non-existence of angels and then discounting an account of an angelic apparition because there are no angels is nearly as poor science as denying evolution because it doesn’t match with (one’s interpretation of) a Bible verse. I will grant that hallucinations and sensations of warmth do often accompany hypothermia in non-angelic-intervention instances, and that there is more concrete evidence of these phenomena than of angelic interventions. But by what criteria can we hope to conclude that the former and not the latter is the only proper explanation in this particular instance? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/56 "2003-11-28T15:22:10Z")
I have no problem with believing the account as stated. The sensations of warmth when one is close to dying is from spirit leaving the body. At this point seeing Angels would be common. People who are in trouble often are visited by Angels or Light Beings who help them through the ordeal. History is full of such accounts. Why she had to lose her legs is unknown to us and not up to debate. [http://www.edconrad.com/lifeafterdeath/index.html](http://www.edconrad.com/lifeafterdeath/index.html) The above link is about miners trapped for 14 days in a mine, and their experience with Angels and such. The reason most will deny the story is lack of knowledge about spiritual things. Religion and/or science: neither is equipped to teach the spiritual, it can only be experienced. Love ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/57 "2003-11-28T15:47:04Z")
Good post **Poly**. For the record, the sense that there are other persons or beings present is not unheard of in other cases of extreme physical endurance (I think Shackleton reported that he seemed to be aware of an ‘extra person’ during the last trip to get help). ---
**Author:** ![badchad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b77776/32.png) [@badchad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badchad)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/58 "2003-11-28T16:21:18Z")
Polycarp > [@](#): > > I will grant that hallucinations and sensations of warmth do often accompany hypothermia in non-angelic-intervention instances, and that there is more concrete evidence of these phenomena than of angelic interventions. But by what criteria can we hope to conclude that the former and not the latter is the only proper explanation in this particular instance? Given the magnitude of the claim I think some clear untampered photos might be a good start. Till then I think it only reasonable to fall back on Hume. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/59 "2003-11-28T17:45:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*The reason most will deny the story is lack of knowledge about spiritual things. \*\* No, the reason most will deny the story is lack of _evidence_. C’mon everybody, say it with me: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without evidence, we can rely on Occam’s razor. Never multiply entities beyond necessity. Can we explain what happened without requiring angels? Absolutely. Does this prove that the woman wasn’t visited by angels? No, but it does make it very improbable. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968/60 "2003-11-29T16:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Borgia \* > **Why is it that angels only act in ways that can be easily explained by natural causes.** Because if they did act in ways that couldn’t be explained by science, you won’t have to have _faith_ to believe in angels. There would be good evidence for the existence of angels, so everyone would _have_ to believe in angels, and therefore nobody would have _free will_. Didn’t you people learn this stuff in Sunday School? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-angels/214968.md?page=4)