# Proof of Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133 "2002-05-15T03:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/1 "2002-05-15T03:00:12Z")
So if Jesus comes down tomorrow (first time or second, you choose), how would we know it’s really him? Aren’t there suposed to be lots of false prophets also? So if I make a mistake and believe in the wrong one, I’m going to be punished? OK so he performs a miracle or two. Would we explain it away or simply not believe it? And if he performs a worldwide miracle, wouldn’t that just dispel the notion of having faith? I mean when he was here before, he didn’t cure _everyone_, just a couple of people. Just wondering… ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/2 "2002-05-15T03:31:22Z")
I would think a huge beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of some large body of water might clue us in. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/3 "2002-05-15T03:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*I would think a huge beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of some large body of water might clue us in. \*\* Yeah, I saw that in Clash of the Titans. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/4 "2002-05-15T05:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*So if Jesus comes down tomorrow (first time or second, you choose), how would we know it’s really him? \*\* The answer is in Matthew 24:23-27. > [@](#): > > Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Remember I have told you ahead of time. So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. If someone comes tomorrow merely claiming to be Jesus, don’t believe him. His coming is to be light lightning flashing from the east to the west – dramatic, visible and evident to all. (That is the abbreviated explanation, as a more thorough discussion would require delving into I and II Thessalonians, the Book of Revelation, and numerous other passages.) ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/5 "2002-05-15T17:20:50Z")
Really, that’s it? He comes down and there’s lightning? Couldn’t there still be lots of people claiming to be Him when the lightning does occur? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/6 "2002-05-15T17:27:10Z")
Uh… doesn’t that say “just like”, rather than “accompanied by”. The implication I get from this is that this is analogous - in other words, whatever happens will be so astonishing that there will be no doubt as to what it is. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/7 "2002-05-15T18:50:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > I would think a huge beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of some large body of water might clue us in. As long as we don’t confuse that with Jesse Helms’ morning swim. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/8 "2002-05-15T19:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*Really, that’s it? He comes down and there’s lightning? Couldn’t there still be lots of people claiming to be Him when the lightning does occur? \*\* **jjimm** ’s response to you was correct. It doesn’t say that there WILL be lightning. Rather, it says that his arrival will be LIKE lightning, so dramatic as to be visible and obvious to all. As for the “lots of people claiming to be Him when the lightning does occur,” there would be an obvious distinction between them and the Messiah. That is, their arrival will precede Christ’s dramatic return, which automatically makes them easy to identify. BTW, in the OP you said, “So if Jesus comes down tomorrow (first time or second, you choose)…” Are you seriously suggesting that he never arrived the first time? Virtually all historians agree that Jesus Christ did exist – and if by some chance they are wrong, then this talk of his return becomes meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/9 "2002-05-15T19:46:19Z")
Well I know that historically he did arrive but I was referring to the Jewish who do not think of him as the messiah. They are still waiting for him to arrive in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/10 "2002-05-15T19:46:45Z")
**Proof of Jesus**? I think he’s normally 3.5%, but a lot of states will only allow the sale of 3.2% Jesus on Sundays. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/11 "2002-05-15T20:34:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*Well I know that historically he did arrive but I was referring to the Jewish who do not think of him as the messiah. They are still waiting for him to arrive in the first place. \*\* I see. Well, at the risk of sounding nitpicky, these people are waiting for the Messiah – not necessarily someone named Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/12 "2002-05-15T20:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I think he’s normally 3.5%, but a lot of states will only allow the sale of 3.2% Jesus on Sundays. 😃 And some lock Him down altogether on Sundays(e.g., South Carolina). ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/13 "2002-05-15T20:56:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*Well I know that historically he did arrive but I was referring to the Jewish who do not think of him as the messiah. They are still waiting for him to arrive in the first place. \*\* Maimonides, in his _Mishneh Torah_ provides the means by which we will know if a person is truly the messiah. He writes: A person is considered a “presumptive messiah” if he meets the following criteria: [ul] [li]Descended from David[/li][li]Observes the Torah and the mitzvos (commandments)[/li][li]causes all Jews to become observant[/li][li]fights wars for God[/li][/ul] He is considered a definite messiah if he does the following: [ul] [li]Succeeds in the above[/li][li]Rebuilds the Temple on it’s proper site[/li][li]Gathers in the exiles[/li][/ul] Furthermore, he writes that the messiah will not need to accomplish miracles or wonders, raise the dead or change the natural order of the world. Proof of this is found from Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest rabbis of the Talmud, who thought that Bar Kochba (Bar Koziva) was the messiah, even though he performed no miracles. Once he was killed, however, they realized that he was not the messiah. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/14 "2002-05-15T21:34:46Z")
Zev, what is proposed as a perfectly reliable method to poll the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/15 "2002-05-15T21:37:49Z")
I’m sorry **Libertarian**. I’m not sure I fully understand your question. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/16 "2002-05-15T21:47:21Z")
You said that a presumptive messiah causes **all** Jews to become observant. How will you **know** when this happens for all Jews upon all observances, and that it continues? (Or is it okay to get a snapshot of perfect unanimity, and then people can begin “dropping out”?) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/17 "2002-05-15T21:59:12Z")
That’s a good question, **Libertarian** , for which I do not have an answer. A guess (and that’s all that it is) would be that it would be self-evident that all Jews are observant. As for your second question, I again, don’t have an answer. Another guess would be that the Jews would continue to be observant. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/18 "2002-05-15T22:23:30Z")
zev\_steinhardt, a couple of questions. Currently, is there a place/person that keeps track of the direct descendants of David? The ‘fight wars for God’ part. Are you talking about the apocalyptic war? Or is this just fighting in the name of God? Can you please explain what is ‘gathering in the exiles’? ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/19 "2002-05-15T22:28:32Z")
zev\_steinhardt, a couple of questions. Currently, is there a place/person that keeps track of the direct descendants of David? The ‘fight wars for God’ part. Are you talking about the apocalyptic war? Or is this just fighting in the name of God? Can you please explain what is ‘gathering in the exiles’? ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/20 "2002-05-15T22:34:57Z")
zev\_steinhardt, a couple of questions. Currently, is there a place/person that keeps track of the direct descendants of David? The ‘fight wars for God’ part. Are you talking about the apocalyptic war? Or is this just fighting in the name of God? Can you please explain what is ‘gathering in the exiles’? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133.md?page=2)