# Proof of Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133 "2002-05-15T03:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/21 "2002-05-15T22:49:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*zev\_steinhardt, a couple of questions. > > Currently, is there a place/person that keeps track of the direct descendants of David? \*\* No, not centrally. However, there are individuals throughout Jewish history who are known to be descended from David. One example is the medival commentator Rashi (1035-1100). One would simply need to be able to show descent from one of these people. (N.B. Descent from Rashi does not qualify as he only had daughters). Alternatively, there is a Jewish tradition (based on the second-to-last verse in Malachi) that Elijah the Prophet will return before the coming of the Messiah. He will know who is descended from David and who is not. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The ‘fight wars for God’ part. Are you talking about the apocalyptic war? Or is this just fighting in the name of God? \*\* This probably refers to the ‘War of Gog and Magog’ in Ezekiel 38. However, see my note below. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Can you please explain what is ‘gathering in the exiles’? \*\* Yes. Today there are Jews all over the world. Part of the messianic mission is to gather them all to Israel. In any event, I should bring up another point mentioned by Maimonides. The writings of the prophets are vauge. As such, no one knows for sure how it will all turn out until it happens. As such, such points as the order that things will happen in, nor the precise details of these events are articles of faith. As such, different Jews may have differing opinions about how these events will occur. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/22 "2002-05-15T22:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*Well I know that historically he did arrive but I was referring to the Jewish who do not think of him as the messiah. They are still waiting for him to arrive in the first place. \*\* BTW, at what point in this thread were you refering to the Jewish messiah? You titled the thread “Proof of Jesus,” you asked a question about the return of Jesus in the OP, and you responded to **JThunder** ’s answer where he was clearly talking about Jesus. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/23 "2002-05-15T23:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > > BTW, at what point in this thread were you refering to the Jewish messiah? You titled the thread “Proof of Jesus,” you asked a question about the return of Jesus in the OP, and you responded to **JThunder** ’s answer where he was clearly talking about Jesus. > \*\* In the first post I asked about his return or his arrival. I wanted to get all opinions about the messiah, who may or may not be named Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/24 "2002-05-16T03:05:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\* > > In the first post I asked about his return or his arrival. I wanted to get all opinions about the messiah, who may or may not be named Jesus. \*\* In which case, to paraphrase **zev** , you shouldn’t have titled the thread “Proof of Jesus,” you shouldn’t have asked about the return of Jesus in the OP, and you should have clarified matters in your response to my statement where I was clearly talking about Jesus. With all due respect, of course. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/25 "2002-05-16T03:33:47Z")
Is there a name for the Jewish messiah? ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/26 "2002-05-16T12:04:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Alternatively, there is a Jewish tradition (based on the second-to-last verse in Malachi) that Elijah the Prophet will return before the coming of the Messiah. He will know who is descended from David and who is not. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* A question about Elijah - I know that part of the _bris_ ceremony involves the recognition that this child may be Elijah, so is it fair to say that Elijah’s return will be a spiritual one (such as that of the Dali Lama) rather than a physical one? IOW, the physical body of the Elijah of Biblical times is dead and gone by now - does the predicted return of Elijah need this body to be resurrected somehow or is it the spirit of Elijah dwelling in another human being who will return? Gp ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/27 "2002-05-16T12:25:48Z")
Elijah never died. He went up to heaven in a chariot of fire. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/28 "2002-05-16T13:02:09Z")
Ok - am I wrong about the _bris_ thing then? Gp ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/29 "2002-05-16T13:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*Is there a name for the Jewish messiah? \*\* Well of course, silly. Everyone has a name! 🙂 I’ll tell you what it is when he gets here. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/30 "2002-05-16T13:29:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > \*\* > > A question about Elijah - I know that part of the _bris_ ceremony involves the recognition that this child may be Elijah, so is it fair to say that Elijah’s return will be a spiritual one (such as that of the Dali Lama) rather than a physical one? IOW, the physical body of the Elijah of Biblical times is dead and gone by now - does the predicted return of Elijah need this body to be resurrected somehow or is it the spirit of Elijah dwelling in another human being who will return? > > Gp \*\* Not quite. I think you might have it a bit mixed up. At the _bris_, an unoccupied chair is left next to the _sandek_ (the person holding the baby). The chair is left there for the tradition that Elijah is present at every _bris_. There is, to my knowledge, no tradition stating that a future baby will be Elijah. As **Alessan** pointed out, Elijah did not die. It is presumed that his return would be a physical one. Zev Steinhardt Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/31 "2002-05-16T13:52:09Z")
But FIRST, the antichrist must come on to the scene, confrim a 7- year treaty for Israel and to allow it to have animal sacrifices again. 7 years later, Jesus will return, and He’ll be pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/32 "2002-05-16T13:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > **I mean when he was here before, he didn’t cure _everyone_, just a couple of people.** In a sense, Christian doctrine holds that he _did_ cure everyone (of their most serious disorder anyway 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/33 "2002-05-16T13:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > > Well of course, silly. Everyone has a name! 🙂 > > I’ll tell you what it is when he gets here. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* One of the strangest movies I saw was titled Pi. It dealt with a guy using a computer and the Fibonacci numbers to divine the stock market future. Then it got mixed up with some people that use numerology and the Talmud to divine the true name of God (I think it was supposed to have 32 letters). Do people really do this? And do they also try to divine and hidden meaning as to the messianic prophecies? ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/34 "2002-05-16T13:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*Not quite. I think you might have it a bit mixed up. > > At the _bris_, an unoccupied chair is left next to the _sandek_ (the person holding the baby). The chair is left there for the tradition that Elijah is present at every _bris_. There is, to my knowledge, no tradition stating that a future baby will be Elijah.\*\* Thank you - the tradtion that I had heard was that the newly circumcised baby was _placed in the empty chair_ in recognition that they might be Elijah… Reform tradition? This was in South Africa, so local custom? Sephardic and Ashkenazi traditions? Or someone talking out of an orifice usually reserved for something else? Gp ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/35 "2002-05-16T14:01:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*In a sense, Christian doctrine holds that he _did_ cure everyone (of their most serious disorder anyway 😉 ) \*\* Really? I thought that he just cured those that had faith. So that means that all major diseases disappeared? And most people didn’t even know who to thank? Does that mean that all major disease has appeared on the planet after his cures? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/36 "2002-05-16T14:06:46Z")
_Sin_\*, **ice**. He cured them of their sin. Have you a bible to read, BTW? ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/37 "2002-05-16T14:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \ ***Sin** , **ice**. He cured them of their sin. Have you a bible to read, BTW? \*\* No actually I don’t. A quick search brought this quote up from Luke 6:6-10: “And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.” [http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B42C006.htm](http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B42C006.htm) Isn’t this where he cured the man with the withered hand? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/38 "2002-05-16T20:06:58Z")
If you prefer a more comprehensive source with multiple translations in multiple languages, there’s [GospelCom](http://bible.gospelcom.net). ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/39 "2002-05-16T22:04:11Z")
Speaking of proof of Jesus, I think it’s about time I resurrested (heh) that old sawhorse of a debate: [Did Jesus exist?](http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm) (Note: The above link says no. I kinda like his argument by analogy with Hercules.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/40 "2002-05-17T00:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\* > > Really? I thought that he just cured those that had faith. So that means that all major diseases disappeared? And most people didn’t even know who to thank? Does that mean that all major disease has appeared on the planet after his cures? \*\* I only said he (according to Christian doctrine) cured the most serious disorder, not all of them. (I actually meant death, not sin, but since the two are so closely interwined in doctrine, **eris** ’ answer is not incorrect). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133.md?page=3)