# Proof of Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133 "2002-05-15T03:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/41 "2002-05-17T00:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Speaking of proof of Jesus, I think it’s about time I resurrested (heh) that old sawhorse of a debate: > > [Did Jesus exist?](http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm) > > (Note: The above link says no. I kinda like his argument by analogy with Hercules.) \*\* I’ve never been impressed by such claims, and here are [some of the reasons why](http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01.html). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/42 "2002-05-17T07:27:21Z")
The Jesus Myth: I’m not impressed 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/43 "2002-05-17T19:05:56Z")
LOL(o), **Mangetout**!! Actually, I suspect that His second visit will be much like the first one – the people that want to hear what He has to say will end up following Him, while those who expect Him to validate their own prejudices will end up killing Him when He doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/44 "2002-05-17T20:33:35Z")
But when He returns, isn’t there supposed to be a great war? Maybe His army is going to do the killing. BTW, Zev or whomever else may know, when the Jewsih messiah arrives, is this a signal for the end of the world? What’s going to happen? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/45 "2002-05-19T05:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*BTW, Zev or whomever else may know, when the Jewsih messiah arrives, is this a signal for the end of the world? What’s going to happen? \*\* Again, I’ll turn to Maimonides for the answer. According to Maimonides, the world will continue on. To quote him:\* ain bein olam hazeh l’olam habah elah shibud malchiyos bilvad\*. (“There is no difference between this world and the next world except the subjegation of the nations.”) IOW, when the Messiah comes, the Jews will live in Israel, independent of any other nations. The rest of the world will continue on it’s merry way. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/46 "2002-05-20T00:16:45Z")
So if the Messiah comes down, sees the state of the world and decides to do other tasks, then He’s not the true messiah? He doesn’t have any free will in the matter? He has to do what one (or all) holy scripture(s) say in order to be accepted? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/47 "2002-05-20T00:57:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*So if the Messiah comes down, sees the state of the world and decides to do other tasks, then He’s not the true messiah? He doesn’t have any free will in the matter? He has to do what one (or all) holy scripture(s) say in order to be accepted? \*\* Yes, he has free will. If he doesn’t perform his tasks, then he’s not the messiah. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/48 "2002-05-20T03:50:42Z")
> [@](#): > > So if Jesus comes down tomorrow (first time or second, you choose), how would we know it’s really him? Aren’t there suposed to be lots of false prophets also? So if I make a mistake and believe in the wrong one, I’m going to be punished? Inresponse to the op, yep, you will be punished. You and three fourths of the world are unholy abominations. God created only a few righteous people and made the rest of us custom to burn in hell or wallow in the darkness. Me, you, the Dali Llama, Ghandi (already in hell), the aboriginals, the penis gourd men of Irian Jaya, all of us going to hell or at least divinely denied the splendor and glory given to those who are members of the club. God must have been awful bored after he made his chosen people, seeing how he carelessly made soooo many more people just to watch them suffer. Great guy. > [@](#): > > OK so he performs a miracle or two. Would we explain it away or simply not believe it? And if he performs a worldwide miracle, wouldn’t that just dispel the notion of having faith? When I was in fourth grade, a man who lived in the next town over, made chants and buried some things in a little bag after looking at some warts on my knee. The warts went away just like he said. He looked kinda like a messiah, must have been a prophet at least. > [@](#): > > A person is considered a “presumptive messiah” if he meets the following criteria: > > Descended from David > > Observes the Torah and the mitzvos (commandments) > > causes all Jews to become observant > > fights wars for God So **Zev,** How are you going to know if he descended from David? I mean wouldn’t he know and wouldn’t he be able to make you know? Or does God require that we keep track of all this ancestry so we can be sure God isn’t just playing a Joke on us with one of those false prohets. God is a tricky little devil ain’t he? How would we know for sure that he observes the commandments? We gonna put one of those big brother cams on him and watch him in the toilet? Make sure he doesn’t sneak a pickled pigs foot in some dark tavern? How would he cause all Jews to be observant? I mean, we can’t even agree on who is a Jew. What does God think of converts? If he thinks they are cool and all, why has the faith had such a big time over it? Why couldn’t everyone have just joined the tribe way back when and then we would all be Jews. Would God have been OK with that? Fights wars for God? Geezus, there are a million saviors here already. > [@](#): > > One of the strangest movies I saw was titled Pi. It dealt with a guy using a computer and the Fibonacci numbers to divine the stock market future. Then it got mixed up with some people that use numerology and the Talmud to divine the true name of God (I think it was supposed to have 32 letters). It is a 216 digit number that translates into the Hebrew name of GOD. It was forgotten long ago. Find it, chant it just right and stand back. > [@](#): > > Elijah never died. He went up to heaven in a chariot of fire. MMMkay… he is alive. after the fiery chariot and all he is alive. Up in heaven. Old as dirt and alive up in heaven. I see. > [@](#): > > In any event, I should bring up another point mentioned by Maimonides. The writings of the prophets are vauge. As such, no one knows for sure how it will all turn out until it happens. As such, such points as the order that things will happen in, nor the precise details of these events are articles of faith. As such, different Jews may have differing opinions about how these events will occur. Am I the only person that finds the term “vague prophets” a little troubling I mean these are supposed to be prophets. And how does God feel about the Jews who have the wrong opinions about things in this matter? Some of them must be wrong. Can’t all be right. Is God gonna be upset with those who spread a bunch of dirty lies about this? > [@](#): > > Alternatively, there is a Jewish tradition (based on the second-to-last verse in Malachi) that Elijah the Prophet will return before the coming of the Messiah. He will know who is descended from David and who is not. So Elijah is the guy with the Jew list. But how do we know to trust that just anyone claiming to be Elijah is indeed Elijah? What are the requirements to prove you are Elijah and you know the descendants of David? I mean we gotta verify this guy somehow. > [@](#): > > According to Maimonides, the world will continue on. To quote him: ain bein olam hazeh l’olam habah elah shibud malchiyos bilvad. (“There is no difference between this world and the next world except the subjegation of the nations.”) IOW, when the Messiah comes, the Jews will live in Israel, independent of any other nations. The rest of the world will continue on it’s merry way. > > Zev Steinhardt Wow !! an age old heavenly conspiracy to subjugate the nations. Ahem…WTF??? That is the kind of BS the world can do without. It is amazing that there are people who actually believe the overwhelming majority of the world be subjugated according to Gods plan. Great guy. > [@](#): > > Yes, he has free will. If he doesn’t perform his tasks, then he’s not the messiah. > > Zev Steinhardt So who decides when he has performed his task? To whos satisfaction must he perform? Hope it is not the same group of people still squabbling over the converts. We may never know who the guy is. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/49 "2002-05-20T04:26:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > > Yes, he has free will. If he doesn’t perform his tasks, then he’s not the messiah. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* So your last point about the messianic tasks was that the messiah is going to fight wars for God. Then I guess there’s at least going to be one war, THEN the rest of the world will go on it’s merry way. Since the messiah’s going to be participating, I guess it’s going to be a pretty big one right? Which brings up another thought, isn’t the messiah supposed to be nonviolent? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/50 "2002-05-20T04:56:54Z")
Don’t confuse Jewish and Christian concepts of the Messiah. People have used “Messiah” (or “Christ”, the Greek translation of the Hebrew word from which “Messiah” is derived, all meaning “anointed one”) to mean lots of different things. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/51 "2002-05-20T06:00:17Z")
Every time I hear the name Jesus, I think of cheddar. What a friend we have in cheeses. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/52 "2002-05-20T13:48:44Z")
Ah, **Sweet Willy** , I was begining to wonder what happened to you. It’s been over two weeks since we last heard from you… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > So **Zev,** How are you going to know if he descended from David? I mean wouldn’t he know and wouldn’t he be able to make you know? Or does God require that we keep track of all this ancestry so we can be sure God isn’t just playing a Joke on us with one of those false prohets. God is a tricky little devil ain’t he? \*\* How do I know who’s from David and who isn’t? I answered that above. Please go back and re-read it. I gave you possible methods. That doesn’t mean that others won’t become available with the further advent of technology. > [@](#): > > \*\* > How would we know for sure that he observes the commandments? We gonna put one of those big brother cams on him and watch him in the toilet? Make sure he doesn’t sneak a pickled pigs foot in some dark tavern? \*\* :rolleyes: The same way we know the other sages of our past have been observant. > [@](#): > > \*\* > How would he cause all Jews to be observant? \*\* He wil inspire them to become observant. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I mean, we can’t even agree on who is a Jew. What does God think of converts? \*\* You already know Jews accept converts. Remember you started a thread about it? > [@](#): > > \*\* > If he thinks they are cool and all, why has the faith had such a big time over it? \*\* 😕 > [@](#): > > \*\* > Why couldn’t everyone have just joined the tribe way back when and then we would all be Jews. Would God have been OK with that? \*\* They could have and still can. There is nothing stopping anyone today from becoming Jewish if they want to. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Fights wars for God? Geezus, there are a million saviors here already. \*\* And quite a few false messiahs too… > [@](#): > > \*\* > MMMkay… he is alive. after the fiery chariot and all he is alive. Up in heaven. Old as dirt and alive up in heaven. I see. \*\* And we’re glad that you see… :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Am I the only person that finds the term “vague prophets” a little troubling \*\* No one was asking for your approval… > [@](#): > > \*\* > I mean these are supposed to be prophets. And how does God feel about the Jews who have the wrong opinions about things in this matter? Some of them must be wrong. Can’t all be right. Is God gonna be upset with those who spread a bunch of dirty lies about this? \*\* The details about how the messiah will come are not articles of faith. You are free to disagree. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So Elijah is the guy with the Jew list. But how do we know to trust that just anyone claiming to be Elijah is indeed Elijah? What are the requirements to prove you are Elijah and you know the descendants of David? I mean we gotta verify this guy somehow. \*\* When he comes down from Heaven on a fiery chariot, we’ll know… > [@](#): > > \*\* > Wow !! an age old heavenly conspiracy to subjugate the nations. Ahem…WTF??? That is the kind of BS the world can do without. It is amazing that there are people who actually believe the overwhelming majority of the world be subjugated according to Gods plan. Great guy. \*\* Subjugate the nations??? Where did you see that??? All I said was that Israel would be independent of the nations around it. It says nothing about subjugating anyone. Please don’t put words into my mouth. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So who decides when he has performed his task? To whos satisfaction must he perform? Hope it is not the same group of people still squabbling over the converts. We may never know who the guy is. \*\* We can manage our own affairs thank you very much. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/53 "2002-05-20T14:36:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\* > Subjugate the nations??? Where did you see that??? All I said was that Israel would be independent of the nations around it. It says nothing about subjugating anyone. Please don’t put words into my mouth. > \*\* OK, I see what happened here. I don’t know if you deliberately misinterpreted my words or truly misunderstood. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and reiterate. What I meant by “subjegation of the nations” is that the Jews will no longer be subjugated by other nations. It does not mean that the Jews in the messianic age will subjugate other nations. OK? If you truly misunderstood my meaning, then I apologize for my remarks quoted above in this post. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/54 "2002-05-20T17:40:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If you truly misunderstood my meaning, then I apologize for my remarks quoted above in this post. > > Zev Steinhardt Thanks for clearing that up **Zev.** It sounded as if the savior was going to subjugate all of us except the Jews. > [@](#): > > How do I know who’s from David and who isn’t? I answered that above. Please go back and re-read it. I gave you possible methods. That doesn’t mean that others won’t become available with the further advent of technology. Earlier you said that Elijah would know who the desendants were. Now you say that we will have to use technology to find the true Jews? So which is it **Zev?** Do we have to provide the list or will it be given to us by a guy in a chariot of fire? > [@](#): > > The same way we know the other sages of our past have been observant. That is a pretty vague answer. How do you know for sure? > [@](#): > > You already know Jews accept converts. Remember you started a thread about it? Yes I remember that not all sects of Judaism accept converts. Are they in trouble with the savior? > [@](#): > > They could have and still can. There is nothing stopping anyone today from becoming Jewish if they want to. But I want to be a non observant Jew and you guys won’t let me in. Just let me join and the savior will make me observant when he gets here right? What’s the problem? > [@](#): > > When he comes down from Heaven on a fiery chariot, we’ll know… So Elijah comes down in a firey chariot so that all will know he is sent from God. Later, the savior comes and has to pass a gauntlet of test before we know it is him…??? Could two ride in that chariot and save us some guess work? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/55 "2002-05-20T17:45:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > Yes I remember that not all sects of Judaism accept converts. Are they in trouble with the savior? > \*\* All sects of Judaism accept converts. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/56 "2002-05-20T18:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > All sects of Judaism accept converts. You make it sound so simple. It is not. The status of converts is in disagreement within Judaism. Different sects have different ideas about converts. One sect may regard your conversion as legal while another doesn’t recognize it. I want to know what God says about it, not what a group of squabbling men say about it. > [@](#): > > Why is ‘Who is a Jew’ a controversial question? > > The “Who is a Jew” issue has become one of the most controversial issues in Jewish life today. For centuries, a Jew has been defined as a person who was born to a Jewish mother or who underwent a conversion process. > > Then in the 20th century, the different Jewish denominations (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) began to disagree about the content of the conversion process. The Orthodox believe the convert must accept the yoke of the Torah’s commandments (kabbalat ol mitzvot), be immersed in a ritual bath (tevilah) in the presence of witnesses, and (for men) be circumcised (milah) in the presence of witnesses. The Reform movement questions the need for the ritual bath and circumcision based on a debate in the Talmud ( Yebamot 46a) between Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Yehoshua and the other sages. However, the major disagreement between the Orthodox and Reform concerning the conversion process is over the need for the convert to accept the yoke of the commandments which means making a lifelong commitment to Orthodoxy. > > In 1948 Israel was established as a State which would be of, by, and for Jews. Israel’s Law of Return automatically granted Israeli citizenship to anyone anywhere in the world who is a Jew. This law magnified the need to distinguish between Jews and non-Jews, and led to further conflict between orthodox and liberal Jews over which conversions were kosher and should be acceptable in Israel. > > As the percentage of intermarried Jews rose in the late 20th century, the Reform movement made a Patrilineal descent ruling. The Reform movement decided to accept the children of Jewish fathers as Jews even without a conversion ceremony. In addition, someone who was raised as Jew, such as adopted children, was also accepted as a Jew. > > The contentious “Who is a Jew” issue is still unresolved and some say it is far from resolved. The resolution of this issue will have a substantial influence in the future both on the Jewish character of the State of Israel and on the overall identity of the Jewish People. So who is right in Gods eyes? Will some of the converts be left out of the saviors grace? Are they wasting their time because someone got it wrong in their conversion? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/57 "2002-05-20T18:52:07Z")
Yeah, different groups disagree about what’s neccesary for a conversion. That’s true of Christianity too…a lot of Baptist groups don’t accept Catholic infant baptisms as valid, for example, and the requirements to be a Catholic, or an Episcopalian, or a Baptist are different. I’m not trying to downplay this. The convert debate is important in Judaism, and it’s a very personal issue for some people. I’m not going to take an position on. I’m not very religious and it’s not my fight, really, except that I hope it can get resolved without being too divisive I will say though, firstly, that the messiah isn’t about salvation or grace…that’s a Christian concept. Secondly, I believe, and have always believed, and I think most Jews would believe, that G-d doesn’t judge you in your ignorance, but in your knowledge. Lets say the Orthodox are right, and Reform conversions aren’t really valid. Lets say, though, that this Reform convert doesn’t know this, believes he’s a Jew, and acts in every way like a Jew, as well as he can. Nobody, least of all G-d, is going to condemn him for that. Also, the righteous of all the nations have a place in the world to come. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/58 "2002-05-20T18:54:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > Thanks for clearing that up **Zev.** It sounded as if the savior was going to subjugate all of us except the Jews. \*\* You’re welcome. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Earlier you said that Elijah would know who the desendants were. Now you say that we will have to use technology to find the true Jews? So which is it **Zev?** Do we have to provide the list or will it be given to us by a guy in a chariot of fire? \*\* We’ll let you know when it happens. > [@](#): > > \*\* > That is a pretty vague answer. How do you know for sure? \*\* We’ll know. I’m sorry if you’re not happy with the answer, but that’s the way it is. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Yes I remember that not all sects of Judaism accept converts. Are they in trouble with the savior? \*\* Not true. All sects of Judaism accept converts. Some may be more willing than others, but in the end, all agree that converts are Jews. > [@](#): > > \*\* > But I want to be a non observant Jew and you guys won’t let me in. Just let me join and the savior will make me observant when he gets here right? What’s the problem? \*\* Because we don’t accept non-observant converts. We covered this at length and _ad nauseum_ in your old thread. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So Elijah comes down in a firey chariot so that all will know he is sent from God. Later, the savior comes and has to pass a gauntlet of test before we know it is him…??? Could two ride in that chariot and save us some guess work? \*\* It would certainly seem easier to me too. But you know what? I didn’t write the rules. God will do it in His own way for His own reasons. :rolleyes: Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/59 "2002-05-20T18:56:43Z")
Willy, there is a conversion standard that will not be rejected by any sect - the standard of the Torah, which Orthodox and Conservative Judaism require. Other forms of conversion may not be accepted by all, but there is no form of Judaism that will dispute the Jewishness of one who converts by that process (ritual bath, acceptance of the Torah’s commandments, circumcision if male). It is that simple. If one wants to be accepted by all as a Jew, let him or her convert by the standard accepted by all. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/60 "2002-05-20T19:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Lets say, though, that this Reform convert doesn’t know this, believes he’s a Jew, and acts in every way like a Jew, as well as he can. Nobody, least of all G-d, is going to condemn him for that. Also, the righteous of all the nations have a place in the world to come. So God doesn’t have a standard for Jews? This is confusing. If you convert it would seem to me that God would have an acceptable way to do so and those outside his guide lines are out. So who is right and who is wrong? Which converts are Jews in Gods eyes and which ones have been misled. You seem to think that God is OK with someone just acting and living as a Jew. I think most Jews would disagree. If I make my own guide for conversion, like the different Jewish groups have, and convert by my standards, will God put my name on the list? > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > Earlier you said that Elijah would know who the desendants were. Now you say that we will have to use technology to find the true Jews? So which is it Zev? Do we have to provide the list or will it be given to us by a guy in a chariot of fire? > > * * * > > We’ll let you know when it happens. Well if you don’t know just say so **Zev.** You shouldn’t lead people to believe that you know what you are talking about and then shrug at my question. If you truely don’t know then I think I will just claim to be a Jew until someone comes along to prove otherwise. > [@](#): > > We’ll know. I’m sorry if you’re not happy with the answer, but that’s the way it is. So you really don’t know do you? You are waiting for something to happen but you don’t what it is or how or when it will happen. All you seem to know is that something will happen. I know that something will happen sometime. Do you have anything useful to add? > [@](#): > > Because we don’t accept non-observant converts. We covered this at length and ad nauseum in your old thread. Right. But you accept non - observant people based on ancestry. This gets us back to a hard fact that is based on real world relationships of actual human beings, not ancient, vague, prophets, real world problems of racist attitudes. What makes a non observant ancestry based Jew any different than good ol’ non observant me? > [@](#): > > It would certainly seem easier to me too. But you know what? I didn’t write the rules. God will do it in His own way for His own reasons. > > Zev Steinhardt Yeah, it does sound kinda silly doesn’t it **Zev?** God must be a real prankster. Sending down Elijah in a chariot of fire while playing a game of guess who is coming to dinner with the savior. BTW, I have some ocean front property in Arizona. You interested? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133.md?page=4)