# Proof of Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133 "2002-05-15T03:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/121 "2002-05-22T20:46:56Z")
Actually, another reason we don’t have Sanhedrin records could be that their archives may have been burned to the ground - along with the rest of Jerusalem - by the Romans some thirty-odd years later. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/122 "2002-05-22T21:37:49Z")
Good point, Alessan. * * * Czar, now that we’re buddies, you feel free to ask me anything you want. Here’s to you. […tink…] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/123 "2002-05-22T22:27:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*And we have yet to hear from the Christians out there! What’s a guy gotta do to prove he’s Jesus? \*\* Since you were referring to Jesus’ _return_, this topic was covered quite thoroughly on the very first page of this thread. Exclaiming “we have yet to hear from the Christians out there!” is a patently false accusation. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/124 "2002-05-22T22:52:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > Since you were referring to Jesus’ _return_, this topic was covered quite thoroughly on the very first page of this thread. Exclaiming “we have yet to hear from the Christians out there!” is a patently false accusation. \*\* It is not a patently false accusation. It wasn’t even an accusation, just a statement. The topic was not covered _thoroughly_ on the first page. I heard your viewpoint and your interpretation. You are not the definitive source of Christian doctrine, there are many others that are just as valid. I aim to hear from them. As I said beforehand, we have yet to hear from the Christian **s** out there! ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2002, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/125 "2002-05-22T23:35:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\* > > It is not a patently false accusation. It wasn’t even an accusation, just a statement.\*\* One might quibble about whether it constitutes an accusation, but it was most certainly false. > [@](#): > > **The topic was not covered _thoroughly_ on the first page. I heard your viewpoint and your interpretation. You are not the definitive source of Christian doctrine, there are many others that are just as valid. I aim to hear from them.** The answer was detailed, and quite thorough. Morever, even if we grant that other viewpoints exist, that does not mean that the answer was not thorough. After all, anybody can offer a mere viewpoint. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As I said beforehand, we have yet to hear from the Christian **s** out there! \*\* I think you’re being deliberately disingenuous here. The statement “we have yet to hear from the Christians” clearly implies that you received no responses from them. It is NOT equivalent to saying “We have only heard from one of them.” Besides which, there have been multiple replies to your question – at least two of which were on the very first page. If you’re assuming that only one of those came from a Christian, then I think you’re assuming an awful lot… and the burden of proof thus rests on your shoulders to prove that the other replies came from non-believers. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/126 "2002-05-23T03:48:38Z")
> [@](#): > > One might quibble about whether it constitutes an accusation, but it was most certainly false. I still don’t think they were thoroughly discussed. You made the statement, then the burden of proof (as you like to demand) is on your shoulders. > [@](#): > > Morever, even if we grant that other viewpoints exist, that does not mean that the answer was not thorough. After all, anybody can offer a mere viewpoint. Yeah, that’s right. That’s what I’m after, viewpoints. Those I would like to discuss. BTW, _of course_ other viewpoints exist. > [@](#): > > If you’re assuming that only one of those came from a Christian, then I think you’re assuming an awful lot… and the burden of proof thus rests on your shoulders to prove that the other replies came from non-believers. There’s no burden of proof. All the replies came from believers. Some just don’t believe what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/127 "2002-05-23T04:01:50Z")
Uh, OK. I am a Christian. I fully expect to recognize Him, should he return in my lifetime. I could be wrong. If I have already died, I suppose He will be the first one I see after I am resurrected, so that should be fairly easy as well. Now, if you are asking how will I be able to prove His identity to you, well, it probably won’t get any easier than it is now. It’s a very sad thing, really. The only safe way to be sure is to greet everyone you meet as if they were Him, and give your love unstintingly to each and all of your brothers and sisters here on Earth. That should work, though. Tris ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/128 "2002-05-23T04:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > \*\*The only safe way to be sure is to greet everyone you meet as if they were Him, and give your love unstintingly to each and all of your brothers and sisters here on Earth. > \*\* Now THAT’S a good viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/129 "2002-05-23T04:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\* I still don’t think they were thoroughly discussed. You made the statement, then the burden of proof (as you like to demand) is on your shoulders._\* Which I provided, by citing the relevant passage from Matthew’s gospel, explaining how the returning Christ is to be recognized. A thorough explanation does not have to be long. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Yeah, that’s right. That’s what I’m after, viewpoints. Those I would like to discuss. BTW, _of course_ other viewpoints exist.\*\* And if you were _merely_ asking for other viewpoints, that would be fine – but that’s not what you said. You complained that the Christians had YET to respond, when in reality, at least one of them did (and by all indications, several did). As for other viewpoints existing, nobody denies that. The point is that the existence of other viewpoints does NOT – **repeat, NOT** – mean that you had not received an answer from any of the Christians. > [@](#): > > \*\* All the replies came from believers. Some just don’t believe what you do. \*\* And yet scant moments ago, you said that you had yet to hear from the Christians. I don’t normally speak this way to critics, but I think that your dishonesty is pretty blatant. Moreover, the fact that “some just don’t believe what \* do” is another irrelevant objection. You were complaining that you hadn’t heard from the Christians. Stating other beliefs exist is an irrelevant point which does nothing to support your finger-pointing statement. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/130 "2002-05-23T04:35:08Z")
Critics? Blatant dishonesty? You do go out of your way to find offense don’t you JThunder? I would still like to hear other viewpoints from Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/131 "2002-05-23T05:17:38Z")
**Libertarian** , do I even need to raise the objection that the items you cited are not sources reliable enough to draw any sort of conclusion? I hope that wasn’t easy glibness on your part, because you know that it doesn’t contribute to a discussion. For the rest of your posts, I addressed your objections (including Cecil’s unusually feeble column) before you even posted them. Now _that’s_ nifty. Incidentally, we’ve got sources that talk about Hercules, Loki, Gaia, Anubis, and countless others characters for whom we have very little or no supporting evidence beyond the select sources; why should their existence not be supported as fact by the proponent sources, the same way that you seem to think reference to Jesus in the Bible supports his otherwise non-existent historicity? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/132 "2002-05-23T13:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Libertarian, do I even need to raise the objection that the items you cited are not sources reliable enough to draw any sort of conclusion? I don’t recall saying anything about reliability, but merely about ubiquity. At any rate, I don’t see why the writings of Mark, Luke, Paul, et al are necessarily any less reliable than writings by Tacitus, Josephus, or huffy Pharisees scribbling angry insults. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/133 "2002-05-23T14:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > **Critics? Blatant dishonesty? > You do go out of your way to find offense don’t you JThunder?** Yes, I do think you’re being blatantly dishonest. How else would you describe someone who exclaims “We have yet to hear from the Christians!” and then turns around and says " All the replies came from believers"? In both cases, those were your exact words. One need not “go out of [one’s] way to find offense” to notice such clear dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/134 "2002-05-23T14:29:06Z")
A Jew believes, but he’s not a Christian. A Muslim beileves, he’s also not a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/135 "2002-05-23T14:36:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I don’t recall saying anything about reliability, but merely about ubiquity. At any rate, I don’t see why the writings of Mark, Luke, Paul, et al are necessarily any less reliable than writings by Tacitus, Josephus, or huffy Pharisees scribbling angry insults. \*\* Especially since we’re merely talking about Christ’s existence at this point. One might question whether the NT writers were correct regarding Resurrection and other details (though I believe they were), but that would not mean that Christ himself never existed. As for comparing Jesus to Hercules et al, I think that’s a specious analogy. The Herculean myths, for example, are rife with extravagant details for which one should expect abundant corroboration. Among other things, they describe all manner of fanciful creatures – Stymphalian birds, flesh-eating mares, a vicious hydra, a Nemean lion with a nigh-indestructible hide, and the Cretan bull (the son of a minotaur). It also spoke of the Amazons, and a race of intelligent centaurs. The Herculean saga even claims that he bore the entire earth on his shoulders for a time, while Atlas retrieved the golden apples of the Hesperides. While I would not expect every detail of the Herculean saga to be corroborated, the absence of corroboration for such extraordinary details is most conspicuous. In addition, Herc’s life story is intimately tied with those of the other Greco-Roman heroes and dieties, which indicates a further lack of corroboration. Finally, to the best of my knowledge, there are no extra-mythological accounts which speak of Hercules as an actual, historical person – unlike Jesus Christ, of whom secular writers did speak. In other words, there is abundant reason to believe that Hercules did not exist. Hence, there is no inconsistency in rejecting Herc’s story, while believing that Jesus Christ did exist on this earth. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/136 "2002-05-23T14:48:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ice1000 \* > \*\*A Jew believes, but he’s not a Christian. A Muslim beileves, he’s also not a Christian. \*\* You are being specious again. The context clearly indicates belief in Christianity. Let me cite your words _in context_. > [@](#): > > **Jthunder** : If you’re assuming that only one of those came from a Christian, then I think you’re assuming an awful lot… and the burden of proof thus rests on your shoulders to prove that the other replies came from non-believers. > **ice1000** :There’s no burden of proof. All the replies came from believers. In other words, the context clearly used “believers” to mean Christians, and “non-believers” to mean non-Christians. Besides, what is the point is saying “All of the replies came from believers” if one merely means belief in _something_? Such an objection is ultimately meaningless. Of course, even if we ignore that inconsistency, the point is moot. The fact is that, contrary to your claim, you have _indeed_ received responses – multiple responses, in fact – from people who appear to be Christians. At least two of them explicitly identified themselves as such. As for the rest, you might choose to _assume_ that they came from non-Christians, but that would merely be an assumption… an unwarranted one, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/137 "2002-05-23T15:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **I don’t see why the writings of Mark, Luke, Paul, et al are necessarily any less reliable than writings by Tacitus, Josephus, or huffy Pharisees scribbling angry insults.** That’s right, especially when it is widely held that the writtings accounted to Josephus referring to Jesus were fake, that the Tacitus writing done 117 CE as referring to the followers of a religion and not of the man himself, and those angry insults in the Talmud were written after 200 CE about a man called Jesus (a fairly common name) son of Pantera having very little details in common with Jesus son of Joseph. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\* > As for comparing Jesus to Hercules et al, I think that’s a specious analogy. The Herculean myths, for example, are rife with extravagant details for which one should expect abundant corroboration. \*\* You mean like feeding thousands with a few fishes and a loaf of bread, having the earth shrouded in darkness upon death, rising from the dead and visiting hundreds and hundreds of people. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/138 "2002-05-23T15:43:14Z")
My words, _in context_ were: “There’s no burden of proof. All the replies came from believers. Some just don’t believe what you do.” The third sentence, which you omitted, defines that I was also referring to other religions. Are you implying that a belief in something other than Christianity is ultimately meaningless? Play whatever words games you like JThunder, I would still like to hear from the Christians on this point. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/139 "2002-05-23T15:44:30Z")
My _complete_ answer was: “There’s no burden of proof. All the replies came from believers. Some just don’t believe what you do.” The third sentence, which you omitted, defines that I was also referring to other religions. Are you implying that a belief in something other than Christianity is ultimately meaningless? Play whatever words games you like JThunder, I would still like to hear from the Christians on this point. ---
**Author:** ![ice1000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ice1000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ice1000)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-jesus/109133/140 "2002-05-23T15:45:46Z")
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