# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/221 "2018-03-26T04:14:04Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > Google **Josephus on Jesus** in Wikipedia. Josephus was a Roman.Second paragraph states (in part) > \*Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the reference in Book 20, Chapter 9, 1 of the Antiquities to “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James”[12] and considers it as having the highest level of authenticity among the references of Josephus to Christianity > \* There are no ancient non-Christian accounts of Jesus’ alleged resurrection. None. There are only a few fleeting mentions of any kind about him. The five words you quote from Josephus says only that he was called Christ. I suppose that many modern Christians think that the term “Christ” has something to do with resurrection, but it doesn’t, it just means that he had oil poured on his head. Neither Josephus, nor Tacitus, nor Pliny says he was resurrected. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/222 "2018-03-26T04:53:02Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Just in case it’s not familiar to anyone, > _That_ is the “Spider-man Fallacy”. > > CMC fnord! Aha - never heard it called that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/223 "2018-03-26T04:56:29Z")
Past threads: [Why do you believe that Jesus was physically Resurrected?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=412001) Discussion of mythicist position here: [Was Jesus Real or a Myth?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=749965) I originally thought the hypothesis of the mythic Jesus was ludicrous; discussion at this board has led me to upgrade it to improbable. In other words, I can’t rule it out but I think other scenarios are more likely. As for the OP, the earliest Christian documents are the letters of Paul: they precede Mark, which precedes the remaining 3 gospels. I would start there. Mark can be dated to sometime after the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 CE, about 40 years after Christ’s death. More generally, a nice documentary describing contemporary archeological and scholarly investigation of very early Christianity is [From Jesus to Christ](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/). The linked website also has some good background materials. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/224 "2018-03-26T05:01:38Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > That is a pious tradition, not supported by fact. The Gospel attributed to John is anonymous, and even devout Christian scholars date it late first century or early second century, which means that if a contemporary of Jesus wrote it, he must have been 90 or so. Not very likely. Some of the gospels are estimated to be from around 70CE. If a disciple was ten years younger than jesus, he could have been around 60. That is not unheard of in the ancient world – I think Socrates was over 70 when he had a cocktail. But it is very unlikely that any of them actually wrote the text. They might have, maybe, attested to scribes/historians, but those are probably not their actual words except, possibly, as transcribed. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/225 "2018-03-26T05:26:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Aha - never heard it called that. Thanks. It really should be the [Schliemann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann) [Fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann#Criticisms) . . . but then in addition to explaining why finding “Troy” doesn’t prove Homer’s _Iliad_ or Virgil’s _Aeneid_ (and to a sadly increasing audience just what Troy, Homer, Virgil, the _Illiad_, and the _Aeneid_ were) you have to explain who Schliemann was . . . and more difficultly, how to pronounce _Heinrich Schliemann_! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/226 "2018-03-26T05:44:26Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > No doubt. Vishnu would never have put up with that shit. Krishna, who was an avatar of Vishnu, was killed by a hunter who mistook him for a deer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/227 "2018-03-26T06:07:50Z")
Doe! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/228 "2018-03-26T07:27:37Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > C.S.Lewis the man responsible for the most transparently stupid argument for the divinity of Jesus ever devised. > > [Lewis's trilemma - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma) Too be fair, Lewis also wrote his own version of Christ’s death and resurrection that was much more kickass than the original. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/229 "2018-03-26T09:44:10Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > You have a lot of questions. I have this book you ought to read, called The Case for Easter, by Lee Strobel. Maybe you have heard of it? Pardon me, I am getting a bit giddy. > > A cite in historical records other than the Bible, does not exist, as far as I know. so if you reject the Bible as a historical document, there is no cite at all. It must be said that the Bible is often used as a proof-checker against other historical documents and vice versa. Historians have analyzed Bible passages and have counted many of them as historical accounts. > > Anyway, it says in The Case for Easter, (pages 65-67 if you want to refer to it), Gary Habermas, PH.D., D.D (author of seven books on the resurrection) states, in admittedly, technical terms, that the structure of the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 is a creed due to several solid reasons, including (1)use of rabbinic terms indicating passing on holy tradition (2) the text’s parallelism and stylized content (3) The use of Cephus for “Peter” indicating a very early origin of use (4) the use of several primitive phrases that Paul would not commonly use and (5) the use of certain words is similar to older Aramaic and Hebrew narration. The creed assessment is shared by scholars from a broad theological spectrum. Joachim Jeremias refers to it as "the earliest (creed) tradition of all."Ulrick Wilchens says it “indubitably goes back to the oldest phase of all in the history of primitive Christianity.” The leading view of theologians is that Paul got it directly from Peter and James themselves and he took great pains to confirm its accuracy. Scholars believe that Paul got this material 3 yrs after his conversion. Further (a repeat) one of the very few Jewish new testament scholars, Pinchas Lapide says the evidence is so strong that it “may be considered a statement of eyewitnesses.” Later in Chap 15 - v11, Paul describes how the other apostles are preaching the same gospel, the message about the resurrection. Okay, my point stands. Whether or not it’s a creed says nothing about its historical accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/230 "2018-03-26T10:24:50Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I apologize if I offended you. You did not offend me personally. > [@](#): > > Of course they are Christians. Then why aren’t they called Christians? > [@](#): > > I disagree that Messianic-Jews is an anti-semitic term. I’m not surprised. However, it is considered such by some people. “Messianic Jews” are the only group of Christians identified not as “Christians” but by their former religion/ethnicity (or even the religion of their ancestors, as in my experience their children and grandchildren are likewise called “Messianic Jews” rather than the Christians they are). Why single then out? Why not make them full members of the Christian community? Why are they rejected as Christians and given a different label? > [@](#): > > I have seen them describe themselves in that manner. I’ve seen black people call themselves and other black people n\*\*\*\*\*, too, what does that prove? Both terms are offensive. > [@](#): > > One of the Christian members in my church converted from Judaism, who is one that I mentioned in an earlier post. Then why isn’t he a Christian rather than a “messianic Jew”? Do you have "messianic Buddhists? Messianic African-Americans? No - only the former Jew is set apart and made other. Jews who convert to Christianity are not allowed to be Christians by all too many Christian sects, including yours apparently. Which is ironic given that the first followers of Jesus were Jews. > [@](#): > > The other I mentioned in that post was an invited speaker and tour guide for a group of church members. They are welcome in my church. But not as Christians, apparently, only as “messianic Jews”. It baffles me why a Jew would convert to a religion that doesn’t allow them to be a full member but always and ever “the former Jew”. But then, a lot of what people do baffles me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/231 "2018-03-26T10:33:23Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > Of the many world religions, Christianity is the only one that claims its founder was resurrected. From what I have studied and believe, the resurrection is a true event in history. Therefore, no other religious organization has a (claimed) “god” that can be described as powerful as God (YHWH or Yahweh). What do you think the ability to perform this or that supernatural feat proves? As far as I can tell, the Bible you hold up as a true account mentions a number of supernatural feats. Consider the Old Testament: Moses and Aaron appear before Pharaoh, and as commanded by the Lord the stick-into-snake bit happens; and then _“the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.”_ Then we get the water-into-blood bit; and then _“the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts”_. Then there’s the bit with the frogs; and then _“the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.”_ Consider, too, your New Testament: aren’t we told, in the Book of Revelation, of a false prophet, and recovery from a seemingly-mortal wound? You know, the part that goes _“…whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast”_…? So what does that demonstrate? That, according to your religion, the power to do miracles in general — including triumph over a deadly wound in particular — proves _nothing,_ and so can be (and _is_) used to, uh, deceiveth people? I could go on, but the number of examples is hardly the point; the point is, isn’t there a Bible passage specifically warning that there may arise among people a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, who shall giveth a sign or a wonder — and who should be rejected _anyway,_ because the fact that he can perform this or that wondrous feat doesn’t actually establish his bona fides? As per the Bible, didn’t people point that out about Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/232 "2018-03-26T12:06:29Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > Of the many world religions, Christianity is the only one that claims its founder was resurrected. From what I have studied and believe, the resurrection is a true event in history. You have not presented anything that could not be far more easily and logically interpreted as mundane human occurrences (i.e. witness errors, transcription errors, or deliberate deceit). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/233 "2018-03-26T12:22:02Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > Of the many world religions, Christianity is the only one that claims its founder was resurrected. Untrue. Although this statement is proof that you have not studied other religions outside the Abrahamic ones and are ignorant on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/234 "2018-03-26T12:39:19Z")
I just wanted to build on what I’d just been on about: Imagine a devout Christian, maybe one who knows the Bible by heart. Imagine, too, that he comes across some guy who claims to be the god Hades — or the son of the god Hades, or the high priest of the god Hades, or some combination — and who is proclaiming to a crowd that Hades is a mighty god; Hades, he says, is the brother of Poseidon: the god of oceans and earthquakes. Hades, he says, is the brother of Zeus: the god who casts thunderbolts down from the sky. Imagine that proclaimer gets his head lopped off or something, and his beheaded body picks that head up and keeps carrying on like before. Heck, maybe it’s _more_ impressive than before; maybe he’s floating a few feet off the ground now? Anyhow, he declares that all people should pray to Hades once a day — and should declare him the brother of the god Poseidon and the god Zeus; and should add that Hades is the one true ruler of the afterlife, and that Jesus was a blasphemer — and he talks about how folks should start tithing some of their income to the Church of Hades that’ll start building houses of worship in cities across the world, and so on. Let’s say that eyewitness testimony of this gets documented — not just of the people watching it on live television, but of those who were there — but, again, let’s say too that the Christian in question was there and saw the whole thing in person; what is the prescribed response of a Christian who sees such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/235 "2018-03-26T12:42:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I just wanted to build on what I’d just been on about: > > Imagine a devout Christian, maybe one who knows the Bible by heart. Imagine, too, that he comes across some guy who claims to be the god Hades — or the son of the god Hades, or the high priest of the god Hades, or some combination — and who is proclaiming to a crowd that Hades is a mighty god; Hades, he says, is the brother of Poseidon: the god of oceans and earthquakes. Hades, he says, is the brother of Zeus: the god who casts thunderbolts down from the sky. > > Imagine that proclaimer gets his head lopped off or something, and his beheaded body picks that head up and keeps carrying on like before. Heck, maybe it’s _more_ impressive than before; maybe he’s floating a few feet off the ground now? Anyhow, he declares that all people should pray to Hades once a day — and should declare him the brother of the god Poseidon and the god Zeus; and should add that Hades is the one true ruler of the afterlife, and that Jesus was a blasphemer — and he talks about how folks should start tithing some of their income to the Church of Hades that’ll start building houses of worship in cities across the world, and so on. > > Let’s say that eyewitness testimony of this gets documented — not just of the people watching it on live television, but of those who were there — but, again, let’s say too that the Christian in question was there and saw the whole thing in person; what is the prescribed response of a Christian who sees such a thing? “Clearly an act of Satan to test our faith to the one true god.” ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/236 "2018-03-26T12:46:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The Bible is a historical document in that it was written a long time ago. But that does not mean what it says is true - which is also the case for other historical documents. > In 500 years today’s novels will be historical documents, and will accurately portray our time, but that doesn’t mean the events in them happened. > > Plus when you get further back, to before when the Bible was written, the “history” falls apart. For instance the Exodus and the Davidic empire. And I’m not even including fairy tales like Adam and Eve and the Flood. Fairy tales? Myths, yes. They don’t have the elements of fairy tales. “Fairy tales” seems a little derogatory here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/237 "2018-03-26T13:01:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Krishna, who was an avatar of Vishnu, was killed by a hunter who mistook him for a deer. > [@elucidator](#): > > Doe! Potato, pohtato. Doe, deer, female deer. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/238 "2018-03-26T13:04:07Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > That change may or may not be significant as both refer to the new cult … one side claims this change invalidates the whole text as fiction … the other side claims it just was a “typo” correction … > > Pliny the Younger mentions Christians _ca._ 112 AD although he doesn’t speak to what Christ did but rather the best way to torture them to death … Actually, he was writing to Trajan for instruction to make sure that he was properly handling judicial cases of people accused of being Christian. Suetonius is another who is quoted, and his quote is a total misinterpretation. He was writing about an agitator named Chrestus and everyone thinks he was talking about Christ. Given the events that he was writing about, the assumption that it was Christ is rather foolish. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/239 "2018-03-26T13:46:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Then why aren’t they called Christians? Why aren’t Senators called “Congressman/Congresswoman” as appropriate? > [@](#): > > I’m not surprised. However, it is considered such by some people Which people, and why? > [@](#): > > “Messianic Jews” are the only group of Christians identified not as “Christians” but by their former religion/ethnicity (or even the religion of their ancestors, as in my experience their children and grandchildren are likewise called “Messianic Jews” rather than the Christians they are). Why single then out? Why not make them full members of the Christian community? Why are they rejected as Christians and given a different label? They are regarded by Christians as full members of the Christian community. They’re not rejected, any more than people are implying Senator Heitkamp is a second-class member of Congress when she’s not addressed as “Congresswoman.” > [@](#): > > Then why isn’t he a Christian rather than a “messianic Jew”? Do you have "messianic Buddhists? Messianic African-Americans? There’s a Buddhist belief in a messiah? Do African Americans who aren’t Christians have a holy book that refers to a messiah? > [@](#): > > No - only the former Jew is set apart and made other. Jews who convert to Christianity are not allowed to be Christians by all too many Christian sects, Name one. Seriously, if **many** Christian sects don’t **allow** Jews to be Christians even when they convert, you can name **one**. > [@](#): > > But not as Christians, apparently, only as “messianic Jews”. > > It baffles me why a Jew would convert to a religion that doesn’t allow them to be a full member but always and ever “the former Jew”. Compared to the way you’ve grotesquely twisted things here, a pretzel looks like a straight line. > [@](#): > > But then, a lot of what people do baffles me. Speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/240 "2018-03-26T14:42:07Z")
As a gentile (tho I do have 2% Ashkenazi DNA), I’ve seen a fair number of incidents of disdain and derision from other gentiles, aimed at the “messianic Jew” or “Jew for Jesus” contingent. Comments like “they’re still jews” (NOT said in a good way), and “too late, they should have converted sooner” have been heard more than once, often from my extended family. YMMV but that’s something I’ve seen. Casual racism is strong in my part of rural America. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=13)